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-   -   SAM vs. SAM - Israeli Arrow reportedly shoots down Syrian SA-5 (http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=129452)

gdvir of IDF 18 March 2017 17:49

SAM vs. SAM - Israeli Arrow reportedly shoots down Syrian SA-5
 
Here's an interesting development in the world of weapons technology:

Following an Israeli airstrike against Hezbollah targets in Syria, Syrian forces launched an SA-5 SAM at the attacking jets.
According to IDF spokesman, the SAM was intercepted and destroyed by an Israeli launched Arrow SAM.
Syrian officials, on the other hand, claim that they shot down one of the Israeli jets.

Here's a rundown of the incident according to official sources.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...lowing-strikes

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-39302416


As someone who knows nothing about SAMs and missile interception, I guess shooting down a SAM that has reached its maximum height and is now on a pure ballistic trajectory sounds plausible enough, although the official version is not widely accepted and some people claim that the Syrians or Hezbollah actually fired a ballistic rocket towards Jerusalem, and the claims of shooting down a SAM are simply a diplomatic solution to avoid having to retaliate even further.

I'd be happy to hear any opinions and if there is any precedence of a "hard kill" against a SAM.

edd1e22 18 March 2017 18:02

Israelis got a THAAD system for Christmas!:biggrin:

ET1/ss nuke 18 March 2017 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdvir of IDF (Post 1058637825)
I'd be happy to hear any opinions and if there is any precedence of a "hard kill" against a SAM.

I'm not sure about killing SAMs, but SAMs versus SSMs has been around forever, and a SAM targeting a high altitude aircraft may not be maneuvering much during its climb, making it no more difficult to hit than an anti-ship missile that makes a terminal pop up maneuver onto its target.

hawkdrver 19 March 2017 01:23

My first thought,

A) Why would anyone shoot an SA-5 at a fighter unless they're out of everything else. The Pk is close to zero, especially with an Israeli caliber pilot and ECM suite.

B) I have no doubt the Arrow could do it, but why waste an ABM missile on a SAM that has a self destruct mechanism. That one's more plausible I guess if it's somehow ballistically a threat by accident or design, like a reverse BM-21.

As usual, probably more to it, be interesting to see what Aviation Leak or Jane's has to say in a couple weeks/months.

Akheloce 19 March 2017 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawkdrver (Post 1058637903)
My first thought,

A) Why would anyone shoot an SA-5 at a fighter unless they're out of everything else. The Pk is close to zero, especially with an Israeli caliber pilot and ECM suite.

B) I have no doubt the Arrow could do it, but why waste an ABM missile on a SAM that has a self destruct mechanism. That one's more plausible I guess if it's somehow ballistically a threat by accident or design, like a reverse BM-21.

As usual, probably more to it, be interesting to see what Aviation Leak or Jane's has to say in a couple weeks/months.

Bolded part my thoughts exactly. This is literally like the line POTUS Bush talked about shooting a million dollar missile up a camel's butt.

The Israelis would have to consider this an operational test to get any value in shooting down a Gammon with an Arrow.

The SA-5 is the technological contemporary, yet inferior to the US Hawk which to be generous is about as effective as having an A-gunner hold an M-60 bipod over his head as the gunner shoots at aircraft. A Cessna pilot would have to have a really bad day to get shot down by an SA-5.

Hoepoe 19 March 2017 07:59

Usually the missile defence systems (Arrow/Iron Dome) will only be launched if the computation is that the missile will fall on populated areas hence the waste is a non factor. Having not been a pilot, I don't know much about anti aircraft missiles but that's the theory.

B 2/75 19 March 2017 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd1e22 (Post 1058637826)
Israelis got a THAAD system for Christmas!:biggrin:

Hanukkah, you mean ;)

Medic09 19 March 2017 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by edd1e22 (Post 1058637826)
Israelis got a THAAD system for Christmas!:biggrin:

Similar, but different.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...defense-01571/


This a pretty good summary of the Israeli missile defense plan, to the time of writing:

https://arirusila.wordpress.com/2016...-in-the-world/

EchoFiveMike 19 March 2017 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akheloce (Post 1058637904)
The Israelis would have to consider this an operational test to get any value in shooting down a Gammon with an Arrow.

The SA-5 is the technological contemporary, yet inferior to the US Hawk which to be generous is about as effective as having an A-gunner hold an M-60 bipod over his head as the gunner shoots at aircraft. A Cessna pilot would have to have a really bad day to get shot down by an SA-5.

I would say SA-5 is more like Nike Hercules vice HAWK. A large, basically fixed site long range SAM with alternative surface to surface role. Although, much like HAWK, the Soviets have kept the Gammon fairly upgraded, although I have no idea what the Syrians have done with theirs.

SA-5 has semi-active terminal guidance, like almost all long range SAM's, and may have passive IR and/or home on jam as well. It's a fast missile, with a large warhead, a high performance plane at range should be OK, but close up, the missile has a lot of energy, so it would be unwise to volunteer to find out what the latest solid state upgrades Putin has sold to Syria. S/F.....Ken M

ET1/ss nuke 20 March 2017 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoepoe (Post 1058637912)
Usually the missile defence systems (Arrow/Iron Dome) will only be launched if the computation is that the missile will fall on populated areas hence the waste is a non factor. Having not been a pilot, I don't know much about anti aircraft missiles but that's the theory.

From what I've been able to find, Syria has submodels of the SA-5b but not the SA-5c which is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. However, any SA-5 that could potentially follow a ballistic arc toward you should probably be shot down just on the off chance that things are not as they seem. The remote chance is worth the cost of shooting it down.

tm3e 20 March 2017 02:49

Last week's news said that a Patriot missile (Saudi?) was used to down a recon quadcopter(Houthi?). Amazing that a long range radar could see something that tiny that's made mostly out of plastic?

Hoepoe 20 March 2017 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1/ss nuke (Post 1058638069)
The remote chance is worth the cost of shooting it down.

Absolutely. Syria also has the largest chem/bio program In the region.

hawkdrver 20 March 2017 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike (Post 1058637985)
the missile has a lot of energy, so it would be unwise to volunteer to find out what the latest solid state upgrades Putin has sold to Syria. S/F.....Ken M

True, but unless Syria's completely reengineered it, the maneuver-time constant and the turn radius suck. The first being a computation and guidance limitation, the second being a physical limitation of the missile. We generally didn't sweat the SA-5, even in the A-10. My current McDonnell Douglas ride, different story :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm3e
Last week's news said that a Patriot missile (Saudi?) was used to down a recon quadcopter(Houthi?). Amazing that a long range radar could see something that tiny that's made mostly out of plastic?

I have no problem believing that. Again I just wonder why.

gavin 20 March 2017 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by tm3e (Post 1058638072)
Last week's news said that a Patriot missile (Saudi?) was used to down a recon quadcopter(Houthi?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawkdrver (Post 1058638186)
I have no problem believing that. Again I just wonder why.

Saudis need a "win" against the Houthis, since so far the Houthis have pretty much beat the shit out of the Saudis despite being overmatched in every category except courage and determination.

hawkdrver 20 March 2017 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by gavin (Post 1058638192)
Saudis need a "win" against the Houthis, since so far the Houthis have pretty much beat the shit out of the Saudis despite being overmatched in every category except courage and determination.

Makes sense. Without knowing all the details, just seems like a better job for, I don't know, a Rem 870. Didn't they just shoot down a Houthi missile last week?

jdogonroad 21 March 2017 17:29

If it's the same type of Saudi's I ran across at KKMC, wouldn't surprise me to see them get their asses kicked by Howard, Fine, and Howard.













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