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-   -   AK and AR Pistols, thoughts and opinions? (http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=122465)

iraqgunz 30 December 2014 14:23

You have no clue what you are talking about. The Sig brace has an approval letter from the BATF.

In addition the silly "opinion letters" are nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetwo180 (Post 1058445562)
#1 While I am a fan of a 10.5 AR pistol with a sig brace, I understand that the brace is a circumvention of government revenue streams, and that my friends is playing with fire. We exist to feed the government.

#2 I had an AK pistol, worthless.

#3 IMO the solution is a bullpup. The Tavor being a personal favorite. 16 inch barrel and no problems crossing any state lines. Still avoid occupied states regardless. There are work arounds for keeping the gun unloaded until needed. Just have to add a step to your immediate action drill.

#5 for CONUS car work I prefer a suppressed large caliber pistol with a light anyway.

#6 the other option is the permanent (requiring tools to remove) attachment of a suppressor to a short barreled AR to make it 16 inches.
I feel that noise mitigation and a good light is more important than a barrel that is 4 inches shorter. We at least in most situations we might find our selves in CONUS.


iraqgunz 30 December 2014 14:59

There (2) letters in circulation. One of them was a reply to a police officer in Colorado who asked if it was legal to shoot an AR pistol equipped with a Sig brace from the shoulder.

The reply from Technical Branch was that they cannot regulate use or behavior.

The latest one was from the same place and seems to contradict what the other one states. Welcome to the world of the BATFE now go get your membership badge.

I am a simpleton when it comes to gun stuff. But, the law is pretty clear. One needs to read the definition of the following;

1. Firearm

2. Handgun

3. Short Barreled Rifle

Then they need to read and understand the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The Sig brace is not a stock and until or unless the BATFE rescinds the classification given to Sig, it is still a brace.

Assuming that this went to court, before a judge that was following the law, the use of a Sig brace would not change the classification of the weapon, regardless of how it is used because the definitions are already codified into law.

Of course, I could be completely wrong on this. I guess we'll just have to wait until some overzealous cop tries to arrest someone for shooting an unregistered SBR equipped with a Sig brace to see.



Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 (Post 1058445690)
That shit is so damn confusing. I mean, which one is LEGAL??? Do we have to view them as valid ONLY in chronological order or something? Is it even a law? How can they just change their minds about shit on a whim? No judge or congressional act, just some dude waking up one morning and deciding "hey, I think I'm going to change my mind on what sends people to prison for 20+ years". And how are people reasonably expected to abide by this stuff? I mean, something is legal one day and the next it's not? No legal process, no oversight, no review by the judicial branch. Just "eh, I'll draft up this letter and now it's LAW". I mean, WTF???

Furthermore, people need to learn to shut their fucking mouths. All these god-damn morons bombarding the ATF with letters for "clarification".....well no SHIT one of responses from some random obscure bureaucrat is going to deny it. Nobody knows what the fuck is going on anymore and it's all just chaos and banana republic bullshit.

Ugh. There I go with one of my stupid rants again.....sorry in advance.


DCH 30 December 2014 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimja (Post 1058445712)
What's the gimmick? 55gn soft points come out the front at somewhere in the ball park of 2300 fps. I can shoot 5" group at 200 yds. It is short, small, and handy and is easily slung over my back or carried. It's not a rifle.. sure and I don't pay rifle length penalties in terms of portability or handiness. But I can shoot a lot faster and easier with it than I can with a handgun. And I'm not too shabby with a handgun.

All my AR stuff and ergonomics carry over... because it's an AR. I would definitely still own a rifle and it is not a replacement for one. But I like the hell out of it.

Classic though, it seems as though people who have experience with them, like them.. and those that don't... don't.

..And I like the hell out of this post..could not have said it any better..

PLUS...plus..

..you dont rake your muzzle on the ground when kneeling and transistion to sidearm, if AR is slung in the common front of torso.

"And if you do?..and if you do?.. and if you do?" (Good Morning Vietnam ref.)
..its annoying.

Tango Chaser 30 December 2014 22:17

Yes that was me a few years ago and yes that is an exposed trigger. It doesn't protect an accidental discharge because there are none. They are all negligent.

And while that holster may look stupid, it uses a Safariland leg panel and you can run while wearing it. Designed just to hold the gun. No fast draw or transition drills. And I've sold quite a few of these. Somebody likes em.

B 2/75 30 December 2014 22:36

I was being a smart-ass when I mentioned that exposed trigger. I was certain it was an airsoft rig, but sadly I am wrong.

The Fat Guy 31 December 2014 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimja (Post 1058445712)

Classic though, it seems as though people who have experience with them, like them.. and those that don't... don't.

I'll give you that. This seems to be the case in a lot of gun reviews, opinions, drama whatever. I see a lot of folks denigrating the 45 GAP that never owned or fired one. My issue is more over the legal aspects than the functional aspects. That said, you still raise a good point.

Tango Chaser 31 December 2014 14:15

Not airsoft in the picture. It was a mock up I built from parts in the safe. Not my cup of tea but I saw a market, albeit a niche one, made a prototype and then sold a bunch.

Fool_For_A_Client 31 December 2014 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by iraqgunz (Post 1058445778)
There (2) letters in circulation. One of them was a reply to a police officer in Colorado who asked if it was legal to shoot an AR pistol equipped with a Sig brace from the shoulder.

The reply from Technical Branch was that they cannot regulate use or behavior.

The latest one was from the same place and seems to contradict what the other one states. Welcome to the world of the BATFE now go get your membership badge.

I am a simpleton when it comes to gun stuff. But, the law is pretty clear. One needs to read the definition of the following;

1. Firearm

2. Handgun

3. Short Barreled Rifle

Then they need to read and understand the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The Sig brace is not a stock and until or unless the BATFE rescinds the classification given to Sig, it is still a brace.

Assuming that this went to court, before a judge that was following the law, the use of a Sig brace would not change the classification of the weapon, regardless of how it is used because the definitions are already codified into law.

Of course, I could be completely wrong on this. I guess we'll just have to wait until some overzealous cop tries to arrest someone for shooting an unregistered SBR equipped with a Sig brace to see.

I agree with this. I was just talking with someone about this last night in response to the question of whether the new letter means that a sig brace pistol is out of the question for home defense. I don't think so. The brace is legal until such time as it is no longer a brace, but a butt stock. In a self defense situation you do what you need to do. Whether you shoulder it, or use it like a battle axe, I highly doubt it would ever matter legally. It would be legally irrelevant to the self defense analysis. State-level LE who would be involved with a self defense situation are generally not going to be in a position to fuck with you using federal regulations/law.

And unless you are famous or otherwise attractive prey, the feds don't like to touch anything that's not open-and-shut. Bureaucrats like low risk, stay under the radar until retirement type stuff.

iraqgunz 31 December 2014 19:53

I see a USGI styled trigger guard in that pic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B 2/75 (Post 1058445478)
Is that an exposed trigger?
That holster doesn't prevent accidental discharge?


assertnull 1 January 2015 00:46

Regarding the ATF letter, I'm hoping this is an actual reply someone submitted to the ATF
http://imgur.com/a/gLBU5
(link NSFW)
((for those uninterested in clicking, it's a mod akin to the MBest11x "Ultimate Finish" video))

DCH 1 January 2015 01:40

Just found out and watched the "How to be tacticool" vid.

Funny guys.

DirtyDog0311 1 January 2015 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by assertnull (Post 1058446134)
Regarding the ATF letter, I'm hoping this is an actual reply someone submitted to the ATF
http://imgur.com/a/gLBU5
(link NSFW)
((for those uninterested in clicking, it's a mod akin to the MBest11x "Ultimate Finish" video))

I saw that on reddit. The guy said it was a joke and that he wasnt going to submit.

His response:
Quote:

With all the recent Sig Brace shenanigans, I ask the important questions.

disclaimer: no, I'm not actually sending this. It is in jest and nothing good would come of it
And I don't really blame him. The way "retribution" is working in govt nowadays I wouldn't want to do anything to skyline myself from people who's interpretation changes with the wind and is as capricious as a teenage girl's opinion of boys. Fairly certain there would be elements in .gov that would want to make an example of him.

Edit: Link to the thread if anyone's curious. Nothing to see really though.

Nimja 1 January 2015 12:19

[QUOTE=The Fat Guy;1058445920]...I see a lot of folks denigrating the 45 GAP that never owned or fired one. My issue is more over the legal aspects than the functional aspects...QUOTE]

Well... the .45 GAP is a whole other story...:tongue::biggrin: (for clarity... I'm kidding.)

I had read all the letters before building mine. It was one reason I went with the buffer extension that I used instead of just using a 6 pos collapsible buffer tube, which is also legal as far as I can tell. With the end cap cushions and the foam rubber cover it works far better than expected.

havok88 1 January 2015 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tango Chaser (Post 1058445972)
Not airsoft in the picture. It was a mock up I built from parts in the safe. Not my cup of tea but I saw a market, albeit a niche one, made a prototype and then sold a bunch.

There is a market for a lot of things that dont make sense. But i guess if people are willing to buy it you might as well sell it.

Tango Chaser 4 January 2015 22:31

I built an AR that fired .45 GAP out of grease gun mags. Ran like a raped ape. Just took a .45 ACP barrel and milled a few thousandths off the breach end for the shorter round.

DuckMarshal 5 January 2015 09:02

I was planning to build one but with prices back down now am leaning towards purchasing new. I-Gunz, what are some of the better quality AR pistols? Been looking hard at the Diamondback but just not sure. I can pick one up locally new for about $800.

GPC 5 January 2015 12:36

Now all someone needs is to make a bump fire Sig brace.:rolleyes:

Rather have a CX4 Storm or side folder AK for truck gun myself.

sabasarge 5 January 2015 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GPC (Post 1058446818)
............Rather have a CX4 Storm or side folder AK for truck gun myself.

Albeit still a pistol caliber, I'm thinking this might fit the bill quite nicely.......

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...pro-sb-pistol/

lifebreath 9 January 2015 18:09

In Illinois, there are very specific advantages to owning an AR pistol, especially if one holds a CCL. Other legal advantages exist in addition to the following:

1. Illinois is split into "Crook" county (Chicago) and the rest of the state. The recent CCW law that passed specifies that the regulation of handguns and ammo for CCL holders is only in the domain of the State, preempting local ordinances. Chicago (and some other localities) has again implemented draconian restrictions on gun ownership and possession, banning certain weapons, including evil black rifles. Having a CCL and owning an AR pistol is the only way to "legally" own or possess an AR-type weapon with 30 round mag in Crook County.

2. Illinois state law requires that rifles are at least fully encased and unloaded in a vehicle. A provision now exists for C&R FFL holders to own SBRs (with all NFA requirements in effect), but the transport of such SBRs requires that the firearm is not readily accessible or is broken down into an unusable state. Having a CCL and owning an AR pistol allows one to have such weapon loaded or a mag inserted and readily accessible.

I own a PWS MK107 AR pistol with a Sig brace. 7.5" barrel, piston driven and very reliable with a wide range of ammo. I have put several hundred rounds through it so far without a hiccup. Very handy, easy to control and quite accurate out to 200 yards. I carry it legally in my truck, in a racquet case and a 30 round mag inserted in the well, but no round chambered, and with the appropriate ATF letters in the pistol grip. I cannot do that legally with a rifle, a bull pup rifle or a legally-owned NFA SBR. Plus, I can carry it across state lines without notifying BATFE. I would still do the same if the brace were disallowed for the reasons given. It is still easy to shoulder with just the buffer tube.

I bought a PWS CQB linear comp to put on it, but after shooting it with the PWS Triad muzzle device, I kept the Triad mounted. No big flames, no huge concussion and a slight muzzle rise compensation. Not quite sure how they achieved it, but it's an amazing difference from a friend's 7.5" flame thrower!

Grandpafork 12 January 2015 18:15

That looks sweet Nimja. Thanks for the input!


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