Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > The Lounge

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 26 May 2009, 09:05
Max Power Max Power is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: PNW
Posts: 3,539
So sick of N Korea and the way we deal with their pre-adolescent antics.

Ever since the War ended (well, technically it still hasn't ended) it has been a constant ~10 year cycle of "we're going to build a bomb", "please don't", "fuck you", "we'll give you oil & food", "oh, ok, we'll stop." 10 years later, "we're building a bomb again...".

Just fucking ridiculous, and every time we got nothing and with every cycle they got closer and closer to a bomb. And now they have one. They've played us for half a century. Instead of treating them for what they are, pre-adolescent fucktards that needed their ass beat, we played right into their game. And they won. And based on what is coming out of Washington, they will continue to win.

Our long-term foreign policy sucks, and it has for a long time. It goes beyond just N. Korea.
__________________
" what is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end."
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 26 May 2009, 09:30
KidA's Avatar
KidA KidA is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: WbyGV
Posts: 18,088
We just haven't used the right words in convincing them what they are doing is harming their world image. More words are definitely necessary. Preceeded, of course, by some strong condemnation language and some resolution language. Then more words. You can't fix things with violence anymore and doing so would send the wrong message to the children.
__________________
Hey homo, its me -- Andy/SOTB
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 26 May 2009, 11:00
grog18b's Avatar
grog18b grog18b is offline
Clorox bearer for SOTB
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Finally back to my 203 range
Posts: 3,194
Wow... you can read sarcasm. *golf clap*
__________________
"....As far as "rights" are concerned... I look at them this way. I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own." GROG

If gun control laws controlled crime, we wouldn't need cops.
Quote:
Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
"The Reaper"
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 26 May 2009, 19:23
Titleist Titleist is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bradenton, Florida
Posts: 1,934
3 more missles today. The belligerence is kind of astonishing. Even for Kim. Having Japan go nuclear might "reshuffle the deck" in that theater. The DPRK has always been somewhat of a linchpin in China's hegemony in the region. Or better yet, let's go in, snatch Kim and take him for pictures at Gitmo!!!..LOL
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 26 May 2009, 23:03
Boats Boats is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NE Texas
Posts: 581
Lessee, China is a hellofalot closer to N. Korea than the U.S.

China has many other international economic/political considerations other than N.K.

China has a vested interest in an ongoing international economy that it prefers not to be destabilized by the actions of a desperate nation. If destabilization occurs, there goes the control, such as it is. Not that many tennis shoes are exported to North Korea.

The concept of World Domination through a United Communism is passe', in the light of Survival via Cash..It's difficult to "Viva La Reveloucion'" without it.(circa 1950's)

North Korea is starving, ergo desperate, as we all know. Rhetoric can take even a god such as The Beloved Leader so far. Desperate people take desperate measures. Without support in those conditions, most governments/despots take action independently, as we see unfolding now. The U.N. is unlikely to ride in on a white horse to save the day, so that leaves...whom?

I'll leave that decision to you.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 27 May 2009, 01:19
KS11's Avatar
KS11 KS11 is offline
Reverse Apache Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Here and There
Posts: 2,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidA View Post
We just haven't used the right words in convincing them what they are doing is harming their world image. More words are definitely necessary. Preceeded, of course, by some strong condemnation language and some resolution language. Then more words. You can't fix things with violence anymore and doing so would send the wrong message to the children.

No kidding. One of the headlines actually read, "UN Says Launch Violates XXXX Resolution and Vows it Will Immediately Draft Another."
__________________
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Giving the enemy a boner is half the battle. --Jungle Recon
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 27 May 2009, 02:54
iraqgunz's Avatar
iraqgunz iraqgunz is offline
Overseas Gunplumber
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Warm and sunny Arizona
Posts: 5,880
I've seen pigeons with a bigger set of balls than the UN.
__________________
"The Armies of our ancestors were lucky, in that they were not trailed by a second army of pencil pushers".

I have been to some armorer courses.

Owner- Semper Paratus Arms, LLC
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 27 May 2009, 06:53
RetPara's Avatar
RetPara RetPara is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Far, far west suburbs of NY
Posts: 2,396
Same dance, same song since 1994. Third President. The question really is What can we do. The refugee flow out of NK to China is so high the Chinese put three infantry divisions on the border a year so so ago.

Consider that you have a state that has NO other options but to intimidate and threaten other countries for grain and so on.

Now please consider that this is a Xenophobic country that has a ruling class that is desperate to stay in power and out of touch with reality. Think of Marie Antoinette here... but just to add a little spice to the picture throw in enough chemical and biological weapons, along with a few nukes, that cause havoc in a LOT of the Far East.

The scary part is I have not really been able to find any hesitancy for NK to use this stuff.

The worse case scenario is for the the NK government to order an all out attack against the South as the NK government fails. Look at it as a huge suicide attack that will take everyone down with them.

North Korea is going to fail. The challenge is to let the nation fail, collapse, whatever, WITHOUT destroying South Korea, Japan, parts of China, and Russia. The worse case death toll would literally be in the millions.

Todays news that NK no longer feels bound by the 1953 Truce... is a real ratchet up I think.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...522103,00.html
__________________
God is great, beer is good, people are crazy......
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 27 May 2009, 09:09
Outofcontrol's Avatar
Outofcontrol Outofcontrol is offline
hippies beware
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 1,184
"We will write you a letter...and tell you how angry we are with you."--Hans Blix (Team America, World Police)











fuck yeah

OOC, out
Attached Images
File Type: jpg HansBlix.jpg (6.0 KB, 272 views)
__________________
MOLON LABE

"Don't tell fish stories where the people know you; but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish."
--Mark Twain

"All that we see is perspective, not fact...All that we hear is opinion, not truth."
--Marcus Aurelius

"The time you spent typing and formatting this post would have been better spent hitting yourself in the face with a hammer."
--Jimbo

Wise old man--"That woman was SEXY!"
Young lad--"She's out of my league."
Wise old man--"Look...let women figure out why they wont sleep with you...dont do it for them."

Last edited by Outofcontrol; 27 May 2009 at 09:15.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 29 May 2009, 12:23
grog18b's Avatar
grog18b grog18b is offline
Clorox bearer for SOTB
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Finally back to my 203 range
Posts: 3,194
With all the new missile launches this week... Anyone want to take bets on how many days it will be before they get tired of shooting at water?
__________________
"....As far as "rights" are concerned... I look at them this way. I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own." GROG

If gun control laws controlled crime, we wouldn't need cops.
Quote:
Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
"The Reaper"
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 29 May 2009, 12:51
Meshadow Meshadow is offline
Sandbox Lizard
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Southwest USA
Posts: 183
I heard on a local radio station that the moderate military officers in North Korea have been replaced or are in jail and have been replaced by hard liners. I don't know how true that is but if it this could be more alarming then the obvious.

I really believe that NK is in need of more money, fuel and food and is holding the world hostage by throwing stones. However, given the unstable nature of the supreme idiot anything is possible.

I'm reminded of VP Biden's comment the President Obamba will be tested with in 6 months. He may be right.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 29 May 2009, 18:39
Titleist Titleist is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bradenton, Florida
Posts: 1,934
Keep in mind, not long after the President was sworn in, Kim moved in and snatched two Americans (female) near the Chinese border. They are still in custody and from what I've read, intend to try them for espionage.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 30 May 2009, 14:13
ET1/ss nuke's Avatar
ET1/ss nuke ET1/ss nuke is offline
If you don't smell ozone, the radiation won't kill you before next week.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: sc
Posts: 5,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titleist View Post
Keep in mind, not long after the President was sworn in, Kim moved in and snatched two Americans (female) near the Chinese border. They are still in custody and from what I've read, intend to try them for espionage.
Human shields?
__________________
"I don't know whether the world is run by smart men who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Twain

"I agree that his intentions are suspect, and that he likely needs to die...." - SOTB

"Just a lone patriot acting alone at a fulcrum point, ideally in a deniable fashion. A perpetrator of accidents." - Magician
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 2 June 2009, 07:54
Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetPara View Post
. The challenge is to let the nation fail, collapse, whatever, WITHOUT destroying South Korea
Is that even possible?

Even with the best case scenario, isn't South Korea going to be screwed for several generations trying to financially/socially absorb the world's largest toxic sh!t sandwich?

Has reunified Germany actually fully absorbed East Germany yet? And it's been 2 decades.........

And that was one of the well educated, better off Warsaw Pact 2nd world nations.

The gap between North Korea and South Korea is like the gap between the Dark Ages and frickin' Star Trek.

Doesn't South Korea absorbing North Korea make West Germany absorbing East Germany look like a visit to EuroDisney?

What is a realistic outcome that includes a price of less than a trillion dollars?

Isn't it in everyone but the North Korean people's interest to keep the game of toxic muscial chairs going a bit longer?

I'm all for seeing the end to the North Korean regime, but who's going to pick up the tab for this mess?

Because it's going to be a TARPtastic sized bill.

With South Korean economic output/export needle pegging maximum on the Depression Gauge isn't North Korea's aggression possibly just another very well timed effort to extract lots more free stuff?

I'm sorta kinda of the belief that the biggest fear senior leadership in South Korea/China/Japan/US have in regards to North Korea is a North Korean Post Office package arriving at the DMZ containing the keys to the country and a note that says. "We quit! Good ruck!"

I would not wish to be a young South Korean citizen over the next couple of decades.....it's eventually going to hurt big or bigger.
__________________
"Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion."

Colonel Flagg, psychopathic guest star of M.A.S.H.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 2 June 2009, 08:13
RetPara's Avatar
RetPara RetPara is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Far, far west suburbs of NY
Posts: 2,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg View Post
Is that even possible?

Even with the best case scenario, isn't South Korea going to be screwed for several generations trying to financially/socially absorb the world's largest toxic sh!t sandwich?

Has reunified Germany actually fully absorbed East Germany yet? And it's been 2 decades.........

And that was one of the well educated, better off Warsaw Pact 2nd world nations.

The gap between North Korea and South Korea is like the gap between the Dark Ages and frickin' Star Trek.

Doesn't South Korea absorbing North Korea make West Germany absorbing East Germany look like a visit to EuroDisney?

What is a realistic outcome that includes a price of less than a trillion dollars?

Isn't it in everyone but the North Korean people's interest to keep the game of toxic muscial chairs going a bit longer?

I'm all for seeing the end to the North Korean regime, but who's going to pick up the tab for this mess?

Because it's going to be a TARPtastic sized bill.

With South Korean economic output/export needle pegging maximum on the Depression Gauge isn't North Korea's aggression possibly just another very well timed effort to extract lots more free stuff?

I'm sorta kinda of the belief that the biggest fear senior leadership in South Korea/China/Japan/US have in regards to North Korea is a North Korean Post Office package arriving at the DMZ containing the keys to the country and a note that says. "We quit! Good ruck!"

I would not wish to be a young South Korean citizen over the next couple of decades.....it's eventually going to hurt big or bigger.
While it would take a few generations of education and proper nutrition for the NK populace to to recover... the financial expenditure would be tremendous.... but in the long and short term it would better than having Seoul leveled.... along with much of the rest of the country.
__________________
God is great, beer is good, people are crazy......
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 2 June 2009, 08:59
Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetPara View Post
While it would take a few generations of education and proper nutrition for the NK populace to to recover... the financial expenditure would be tremendous.... but in the long and short term it would better than having Seoul leveled.... along with much of the rest of the country.
Is Seoul REALLY at SERIOUS risk of being leveled?

I know this is a REALLY rough analogy, but wouldn't that be a bit like Tony Soprano trying to whack the local FBI SAIC/office?

Wouldn't the endstate be the same?

Isn't a crude nuclear capability for North Korea a bit like Tony Soprano having some immunity from prosecution?

On one hand, I could see some serious concern about North Korea's leadership stability putting lots of very serious people on notice to intervene if required.

On the other hand, I could see this being a VERY bold/shrewd example from the North Korean standpoint in taking advantage of the economic devastation affecting the related nations to maximize the potential gain for North Korea.

I'm not a regional expert, but could this recent series of events be just another form of unconventional negotiations?

Does North Korea not possess MORE leverage now than what they will likely have in 5 or 10 years when we see the backend of this economic mess?

So doesn't it make sense from their perspective to leverage their ability to throw stone at our temporarily glass houses?

It feels a bit like that scene in Blazing Saddles when the black guy threatens to shoot himself....except less funny.
__________________
"Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion."

Colonel Flagg, psychopathic guest star of M.A.S.H.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 2 June 2009, 09:00
Colonel Flagg Colonel Flagg is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by RetPara View Post
While it would take a few generations of education and proper nutrition for the NK populace to to recover... the financial expenditure would be tremendous.... but in the long and short term it would better than having Seoul leveled.... along with much of the rest of the country.
Is Seoul REALLY at SERIOUS risk of being leveled?

I know this is a REALLY rough analogy, but wouldn't that be a bit like Tony Soprano trying to whack the local FBI SAIC/office?

Wouldn't the endstate be the same...total destruction?

Isn't a crude nuclear capability for North Korea a bit like Tony Soprano having some immunity from prosecution?

On one hand, I could see some serious concern about North Korea's leadership stability putting lots of very serious people on notice to intervene if required.

On the other hand, I could see this being a VERY bold/shrewd example from the North Korean standpoint in taking advantage of the economic devastation affecting the related nations to maximize the potential gain for North Korea.

I'm not a regional expert, but could this recent series of events be just another form of unconventional negotiations?

Does North Korea not possess MORE leverage now than what they will likely have in 5 or 10 years when we see the backend of this economic mess?

So doesn't it make sense from their perspective to leverage their ability to throw stone at our temporarily glass houses?

It feels a bit like that scene in Blazing Saddles when the black guy threatens to shoot himself....except less funny.
__________________
"Nobody can get the truth out of me because even I don't know what it is. I keep myself in a constant state of utter confusion."

Colonel Flagg, psychopathic guest star of M.A.S.H.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 2 June 2009, 09:28
Sigi's Avatar
Sigi Sigi is offline
Life is simple, not easy.
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 3,577
The only chess piece left on the board for NK is the nuke program and the threat of obtaining more. They must need more money.
__________________
bravodelta: "If they start taxing lapdances, I think I'll call it quits and become a chaplain."

Chaplain: "God moves in mysterious ways...", but ... well.... uhh... welcome aboard!


"If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
William Tecumseh Sherman
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 2 June 2009, 10:27
Matchanu's Avatar
Matchanu Matchanu is offline
Creepy ass cracka
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Isle of misfit toys
Posts: 12,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Flagg View Post
Is Seoul REALLY at SERIOUS risk of being leveled?

I know this is a REALLY rough analogy, but wouldn't that be a bit like Tony Soprano trying to whack the local FBI SAIC/office?

Actually closer to the other way around. NK's military is huge, dwarfing SK by a large margin. The safety net is us and our presence there. NK agents have been infiltrating SK's universities for decades, rousing anti-American "occupation" attempting to gain support for US removal from the region.

NK had very little to loose with an invasion of SK and everything to gain.

I don't believe the nukes to be a conventional option for NK, more probable an asymetrical approch (terrorsim, etc..) on the US or any other nation that they precieve as a threat.

China is the wild card, though I suspect they would rather watch the fireworks and reap the benifits of a major economic tax on the waring nations. What exactly would be their gain from interceeding with NK's affairs?

Japan may be our biggest support. They have a massive navy, something that would definatly come into play in the event of raised hostilities.


NK has no viable long term statigy for extended warfare, they would have to make a blitzcrieg push into SK and commendeer their resources. They have no real economy for such an action otherwise, unless supported by someone else (China?).

Never-the-less, NK is not by any means an easy target. There are a lot of factors that make them a very worthy foe.
__________________
O pointy birds, o pointy pointy,
Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 2 June 2009, 11:56
grog18b's Avatar
grog18b grog18b is offline
Clorox bearer for SOTB
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Finally back to my 203 range
Posts: 3,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchanu View Post
NK had very little to loose with an invasion of SK and everything to gain.
...
Never-the-less, NK is not by any means an easy target. There are a lot of factors that make them a very worthy foe.
Which is why, IMHO, when Kim decides to fire those nukes, he will do it. NK has taken the initiative in the past, and the Korean war is NOT over. The North has continued, through the years, to try anything is could, short of all out invasion, to get operatives, and insurgents into the south.

Like I said... Kim will get tired of shooting at water VERY soon. You cannot compare him to any rational National leader, as he is not rational. He would rather construct a nuke than feed his own people. He does have "little dick syndrome" however, if given the chance, and a nuke, he will use it. I don't think he believes he has anything to loose. His whole Nation is living in the same technological era as they were during the 50s. Kim is still living the cold war, and he wants to win.

He is a very dangerous individual, in charge of a very dangerous people. Best none of us underestimate his desires...

...and yes Col Flagg, Soul IS in danger of being leveled. If for no other reason than WE helped take it back from them... twice...



He kinda looks like Yoko Ono...
__________________
"....As far as "rights" are concerned... I look at them this way. I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own." GROG

If gun control laws controlled crime, we wouldn't need cops.
Quote:
Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
"The Reaper"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:03.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET