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Old 8 December 2017, 18:00
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Daniel Shaver video released after officer acquitted

Surprisingly, I could not find a thread on this topic in this forum.

Warning - probably NSFW.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a48eecdd3132

Man, I am torn on this one. Yes, the guy did not follow the exact orders he was given. But was there not some better way to handle this situation? No immediate threat - initial compliance. Other officers were present. The guy is clearly scared shitless. The officer's very aggressive commands... - and from my (inexperienced) perspective - pretty challenging orders to follow if the dude is scared out of his senses. I know by the letter of the law this is probably why the officer was acquitted. But fuck me, this just feels wrong...

I have never done the job, however, so I am interested in this group's thoughts and opinions.
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Old 8 December 2017, 18:35
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I'm not torn at all. That kid was murdered. No immediate threat, was compliant with commands, and was put face down on the floor with arms extended. What would prevent the officer from cuffing him at that point?
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Old 9 December 2017, 01:12
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I'm not torn at all. That kid was murdered. No immediate threat, was compliant with commands, and was put face down on the floor with arms extended. What would prevent the officer from cuffing him at that point?
This.

This cop needs to go to jail for a very long time. I can't believe he was acquitted.
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Old 8 December 2017, 18:48
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He had a partner, who controlled the other suspect. Suspect in question was at a disadvantage. He could have proceeded forward to make the arrest. No question.
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Old 8 December 2017, 19:57
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I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
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Old 8 December 2017, 20:00
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Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
In hindsight, he should have just laid there with his hands out.
If I ever find myself in that position I will not even move an inch... spread my shit right where I am, palms up, and wait for them to get tired of yelling and come get me. It's a shame that I have to learn that lesson at the expense of this young man.
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Old 8 December 2017, 20:30
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In hindsight, he should have just laid there with his hands out.
If I ever find myself in that position I will not even move an inch... spread my shit right where I am, palms up, and wait for them to get tired of yelling and come get me. It's a shame that I have to learn that lesson at the expense of this young man.
Yeah for reals. I'm just going to fake a seizure and go limp and lay there.
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Old 8 December 2017, 23:39
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I can not believe that a jury let him of the hook on that one. I can't think of not one way to mitigate his actions.
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Old 9 December 2017, 00:04
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Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
Would you say the same thing to your daughters about the SOCNET LEOs? I think the officer in the video is a coward and a murderer and should never have held a badge. He obviously cannot think properly in stressful situations. He should have gone to prison for the rest of his life based on what I watched. There were a hundred different ways to have gone about that and he did almost everything wrong. I hate armchair QBing officers, but damn. I literally just finished an Active Shooter course earlier today. There was zero stimulus (shots fired) and zero indicators (brass [shell casings]) around to indicate that this was a dynamic situation. There was no reason for him to have the guy move as he did, and that led to his murder.

Anyway, I really hate to hear that you said that to your daughters. I can fully understand your take on the situation, but given the number of LEOs that aren't spineless and can use their brains in stressful situations... painting us all with that broad brush could have a negative impact in the future if your daughters ever do need LEO assistance and they are afraid to come to us.
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Old 9 December 2017, 07:09
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Originally Posted by Wes View Post
Would you say the same thing to your daughters about the SOCNET LEOs? I think the officer in the video is a coward and a murderer and should never have held a badge. He obviously cannot think properly in stressful situations. He should have gone to prison for the rest of his life based on what I watched. There were a hundred different ways to have gone about that and he did almost everything wrong. I hate armchair QBing officers, but damn. I literally just finished an Active Shooter course earlier today. There was zero stimulus (shots fired) and zero indicators (brass [shell casings]) around to indicate that this was a dynamic situation. There was no reason for him to have the guy move as he did, and that led to his murder.

Anyway, I really hate to hear that you said that to your daughters. I can fully understand your take on the situation, but given the number of LEOs that aren't spineless and can use their brains in stressful situations... painting us all with that broad brush could have a negative impact in the future if your daughters ever do need LEO assistance and they are afraid to come to us.
The problem Wes, is that we have no idea, in the moment, whether we are dealing with a good cop or a pussy, murdetous SOB, so erring on the side of caution may be the best choice.
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Old 9 December 2017, 09:00
Proeliator 37 Proeliator 37 is offline
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The problem Wes, is that we have no idea, in the moment, whether we are dealing with a good cop or a pussy, murdetous SOB, so erring on the side of caution may be the best choice.
Totally agree.

A LEO is well-advised to never trust a civilian he/she interacts with regardless of how nice they seem at the time for obvious reasons. No LEO on this website would even balk at this idea - it is a good mindset and it will help to get them home alive. But, this is a two-way relationship.

Likewise, civilians have no idea who they are dealing with when a LEO interacts with them. Yes, comply within the law. Yes, be as courteous and respectful as possible. But, NO, don't trust them. And, NO, a badge does not anyone your friend.

Last edited by Proeliator 37; 9 December 2017 at 09:26.
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Old 10 December 2017, 23:32
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Originally Posted by Wes View Post
Would you say the same thing to your daughters about the SOCNET LEOs? I think the officer in the video is a coward and a murderer and should never have held a badge. He obviously cannot think properly in stressful situations. He should have gone to prison for the rest of his life based on what I watched. There were a hundred different ways to have gone about that and he did almost everything wrong. I hate armchair QBing officers, but damn. I literally just finished an Active Shooter course earlier today. There was zero stimulus (shots fired) and zero indicators (brass [shell casings]) around to indicate that this was a dynamic situation. There was no reason for him to have the guy move as he did, and that led to his murder.

Anyway, I really hate to hear that you said that to your daughters. I can fully understand your take on the situation, but given the number of LEOs that aren't spineless and can use their brains in stressful situations... painting us all with that broad brush could have a negative impact in the future if your daughters ever do need LEO assistance and they are afraid to come to us.
This has nothing to do with the police as an organization in general...it has to do with the fact that we've been, insanely, at war for an entire generation and that has led to a cottage industry of people like me turning cops into killers with all the GWOT training dollars still floating around.

Its got to do with a generation of kids who were helicopter parented and never got punched in the face once growing up and doing nothing but watching violent movies and playing first person shooter video games where they rehearse the slaughter of their fellow citizens for thousands of hours instead of doing normal kids things.

Now these millenials have grown up to be a bunch of sick fucks wandering around with badges and assault rifles and countless hours of being conditioned to shoot out the "pelvic girdle" and what not instead of being taught basic skills like de-escalating conflicts.

So just like any group of people where you may have a bunch of friends within, but many are problematic...you just avoid them at all costs when you can.
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Old 11 December 2017, 02:35
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This has nothing to do with the police as an organization in general...it has to do with the fact that we've been, insanely, at war for an entire generation and that has led to a cottage industry of people like me turning cops into killers with all the GWOT training dollars still floating around.

Its got to do with a generation of kids who were helicopter parented and never got punched in the face once growing up and doing nothing but watching violent movies and playing first person shooter video games where they rehearse the slaughter of their fellow citizens for thousands of hours instead of doing normal kids things.

Now these millenials have grown up to be a bunch of sick fucks wandering around with badges and assault rifles and countless hours of being conditioned to shoot out the "pelvic girdle" and what not instead of being taught basic skills like de-escalating conflicts.

So just like any group of people where you may have a bunch of friends within, but many are problematic...you just avoid them at all costs when you can.

Spot on Mako. IMHO, its goes back further than the current millennial generation. When I first got on the street out of the academy in SE Chicagoin '94, I heard the same statements from the old timers that got on the job when they when came back from Vietnam. Their opinion was that police work used to pay shit, so anyone that took the job tended to be committed to the work -- and now that it pays well (in the Chicago area at least), all kinds of people take the job without their heart in it, many of whom chose police work over accounting or whatnot simply due to the benefits.

I have no statistics on that, but I definitely ran into a number of new cops that had never been in any kind of physical altercation at all in their entire lives before becoming the police.

Right after I left to work OCONUS, there was a solid good PD shoot -- which could have been prevented IMO. Bad guy unarmed but emotionally unstable, 3 officers respond and arrive approx the same time - bad guy tosses all around badly, and gets shot by bloodied cop while he was trying to retrieve the pistol from unconscious cop. Not some huge jacked bad guy, but emotionally motivated -- two cops were obese and timid, and the other overweight and female (nothing against professional female cops).

In this case the bad guy died when he didn't have to -- it should be some rare occasion when 3 cops can't handle 1 suspect without killing him, so long as that suspect is unarmed. Poor selection and approval of candidates, and continued use of those poor candidates in real situations -- lead to a situation where a bad guy died instead of getting roughed up and put into cuffs.
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Old 11 December 2017, 18:09
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The "You're fucked" etching on the officers dust cover is something an air softer would have, not a professional LEO. I question the officers chain of command for allowing it if they knew of it; and I question the leadership if they did not know about it. Some may find it has no relevance to this bad shooting but I would say it calls into question the officers mindset, maturity, sensibility and common sense. It is obviously a good thing he is no longer a police officer.
I know many people that have things like this on their weapons. I agree as to the childishness of it.
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1*..... No matter what, he made damn sure he was the one who went home that night.
Ugh. I detest this whole "safety is #1" mentality. In several professions, not only is your personal safety NOT #1, it's often not #2 or #3.
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Fuck, I have nothing except what the fuck were his other officers doing? No one put the brakes on that colossal cluster fuck.
It was a really weird audio tape. In parts of it, the speaker sounds very cool and collected, not adrenaline filled as you would expect. I still fail to understand why they didn't just have him lie still and approach him while he was proned out.
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Its got to do with a generation of kids who were helicopter parented and never got punched in the face once growing up and doing nothing but watching violent movies and playing first person shooter video games where they rehearse the slaughter of their fellow citizens for thousands of hours instead of doing normal kids things.

Now these millenials have grown up to be a bunch of sick fucks wandering around with badges and assault rifles and countless hours of being conditioned to shoot out the "pelvic girdle" and what not instead of being taught basic skills like de-escalating conflicts.
I found that being punched repeatedly in the face definitely helped my deescalation skills.
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Old 9 December 2017, 02:54
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Reminded me somewhat of the Albuquerque NM shooting of a homeless man a few years ago.

Bad shoot. Sad and difficult to watch.

Officers were called for a man with a rifle pointing it out a window of a hotel (responding officers must have thought Las Vegas...Mesa AZ isn't that far from there). So they are going into the call with that mentality I would ASSUME. Once in contact with the suspect they should have realized the situation for what it was. It is difficult for me to gauge the SGT giving verbal commands. At one moment he was very calm and collected, giving precise commands....the next he was screaming his head off at the suspect. That does not increase compliance and surely makes other officers a little more tense. The kid could not have been more compliant with verbal commands. He did not get all the commands 100% correct but he was compliant for sure. There is a difference. The suspect was completely compliant in every way just not correctly compliant.

The "You're fucked" etching on the officers dust cover is something an air softer would have, not a professional LEO. I question the officers chain of command for allowing it if they knew of it; and I question the leadership if they did not know about it. Some may find it has no relevance to this bad shooting but I would say it calls into question the officers mindset, maturity, sensibility and common sense. It is obviously a good thing he is no longer a police officer.



That is a bit of an over reaction but I do understand why.
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I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
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Old 11 December 2017, 08:40
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THIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-O View Post
The "You're fucked" etching on the officers dust cover is something an air softer would have, not a professional LEO. I question the officers chain of command for allowing it if they knew of it; and I question the leadership if they did not know about it. Some may find it has no relevance to this bad shooting but I would say it calls into question the officers mindset, maturity, sensibility and common sense. It is obviously a good thing he is no longer a police officer.
Behind EVERY fucked-up officer there is AT LEAST one fucked-up supervisor, but bad bosses never feel the heat.
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Old 12 December 2017, 23:33
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Behind EVERY fucked-up officer there is AT LEAST one fucked-up supervisor, but bad bosses never feel the heat.
Very much so. But also, you have to think about the upper chain of command, too. Some supervisors are just out for the next promotion, so they'll act like complete jackasses and train their people wrong to appease the higher ups. Someone that I know's sgt would chew you out on camera just to look good in front of his lieutenant that did the same thing. So even the ranks can be just out for themselves and just a shitty as the officers that do things like this.
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Old 8 December 2017, 19:58
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Just saw this also on another platform... just sad.
There's no excuse why the three+ cops with long guns and tactical advantage couldn't have taken him into custody right where he was.

Awful... poor decision making leading to the death of this poor kid.
He was complaint and scared to death, then shot to death.

And I'm gonna go ahead and say this, if he was not a white kid... the outcome would have been different in public outcry and likely the courtroom.
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Old 8 December 2017, 20:06
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Why this officer is not in jail for murder is beyond me. Actions like this is what cause people to fear the police, not respect them. Fear is not a good thing.
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Old 8 December 2017, 20:23
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If I was that scared of one proned out dude who was about to cry he was so scared, I believe I'd find a new career path.
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