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  #21  
Old 9 December 2017, 11:01
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IMO, solely based upon the video, this (deserved ex-) cop is a pussy who never should have been issued a gun.

Isn't there a "selection/weeding-out" in the academy? If so, I would hold the department and the academy liable as both have failed.
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  #22  
Old 9 December 2017, 12:26
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Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
IMO, solely based upon the video, this (deserved ex-) cop is a pussy who never should have been issued a gun.

Isn't there a "selection/weeding-out" in the academy? If so, I would hold the department and the academy liable as both have failed.
Depends which academy you go to. Smaller departments will use a centralized for-profit academy here in Georgia. I went to one which was a total joke. Nothing but the most severe safety violations will get a recruit dismissed. I even saw some firearms instructors fudge shooting scores to pass poor shooting recruits. Itís a damn shame.

Not that it matters but was Brailsford military? He has all the looks of a wanna-be. Dude should have been charged.
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  #23  
Old 9 December 2017, 12:40
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Dude should have been charged.
He was charged.
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  #24  
Old 9 December 2017, 12:49
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He was charged.
Whoops, thatís what I get for posting while chasing my kid around the house. Fixed.
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  #25  
Old 9 December 2017, 13:38
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1*..... No matter what, he made damn sure he was the one who went home that night.
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  #26  
Old 9 December 2017, 14:49
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Any chance there's going to be a federal civil rights case on this one? (Yeah, I already know the answer to that one...)
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  #27  
Old 9 December 2017, 17:21
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Did the incident justify charging the officer with second degree murder? I'm not a lawyer, but I strongly disagree with the charge. I'm not privy to the events leading to the shooting, but I didn't see premeditation.
Premeditation = Thought about it, planned, it, killed in the exercise of cool reflection and deliberation. That would justify First Degree Murder, but clearly did not apply in this case.

Second Degree Murder = Un-preplanned, unjustified, unlawful but intentional killing of another.

He meant to point the rifle, he meant to pull the trigger (five times) he meant to kill the victim, but it was unjustified and unlawful.
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  #28  
Old 10 December 2017, 22:33
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Fuck, I have nothing except what the fuck were his other officers doing? No one put the brakes on that colossal cluster fuck.
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  #29  
Old 10 December 2017, 22:36
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The full video.
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  #30  
Old 10 December 2017, 23:32
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Would you say the same thing to your daughters about the SOCNET LEOs? I think the officer in the video is a coward and a murderer and should never have held a badge. He obviously cannot think properly in stressful situations. He should have gone to prison for the rest of his life based on what I watched. There were a hundred different ways to have gone about that and he did almost everything wrong. I hate armchair QBing officers, but damn. I literally just finished an Active Shooter course earlier today. There was zero stimulus (shots fired) and zero indicators (brass [shell casings]) around to indicate that this was a dynamic situation. There was no reason for him to have the guy move as he did, and that led to his murder.

Anyway, I really hate to hear that you said that to your daughters. I can fully understand your take on the situation, but given the number of LEOs that aren't spineless and can use their brains in stressful situations... painting us all with that broad brush could have a negative impact in the future if your daughters ever do need LEO assistance and they are afraid to come to us.
This has nothing to do with the police as an organization in general...it has to do with the fact that we've been, insanely, at war for an entire generation and that has led to a cottage industry of people like me turning cops into killers with all the GWOT training dollars still floating around.

Its got to do with a generation of kids who were helicopter parented and never got punched in the face once growing up and doing nothing but watching violent movies and playing first person shooter video games where they rehearse the slaughter of their fellow citizens for thousands of hours instead of doing normal kids things.

Now these millenials have grown up to be a bunch of sick fucks wandering around with badges and assault rifles and countless hours of being conditioned to shoot out the "pelvic girdle" and what not instead of being taught basic skills like de-escalating conflicts.

So just like any group of people where you may have a bunch of friends within, but many are problematic...you just avoid them at all costs when you can.
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  #31  
Old 10 December 2017, 23:46
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Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
your post
Very educational, I concur with your assessment.
I also thought it unlikely that anyone including me would be good at handling the kind of pressure the officer placed on the suspect. I would have probably screwed up and gotten myself killed.

I suppose my question is, based on yours and M06's posts is-what can be done about this? Aggressive focus on de-escalation training? More selective entry and exit requirements at academies?
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  #32  
Old 11 December 2017, 01:00
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Fuck, I have nothing except what the fuck were his other officers doing? No one put the brakes on that colossal cluster fuck.
I agree with you here. Wasn't this officer that shot the kid a supervisor? I could be wrong but I heard speculation that he was.
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  #33  
Old 11 December 2017, 02:35
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Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
This has nothing to do with the police as an organization in general...it has to do with the fact that we've been, insanely, at war for an entire generation and that has led to a cottage industry of people like me turning cops into killers with all the GWOT training dollars still floating around.

Its got to do with a generation of kids who were helicopter parented and never got punched in the face once growing up and doing nothing but watching violent movies and playing first person shooter video games where they rehearse the slaughter of their fellow citizens for thousands of hours instead of doing normal kids things.

Now these millenials have grown up to be a bunch of sick fucks wandering around with badges and assault rifles and countless hours of being conditioned to shoot out the "pelvic girdle" and what not instead of being taught basic skills like de-escalating conflicts.

So just like any group of people where you may have a bunch of friends within, but many are problematic...you just avoid them at all costs when you can.

Spot on Mako. IMHO, its goes back further than the current millennial generation. When I first got on the street out of the academy in SE Chicagoin '94, I heard the same statements from the old timers that got on the job when they when came back from Vietnam. Their opinion was that police work used to pay shit, so anyone that took the job tended to be committed to the work -- and now that it pays well (in the Chicago area at least), all kinds of people take the job without their heart in it, many of whom chose police work over accounting or whatnot simply due to the benefits.

I have no statistics on that, but I definitely ran into a number of new cops that had never been in any kind of physical altercation at all in their entire lives before becoming the police.

Right after I left to work OCONUS, there was a solid good PD shoot -- which could have been prevented IMO. Bad guy unarmed but emotionally unstable, 3 officers respond and arrive approx the same time - bad guy tosses all around badly, and gets shot by bloodied cop while he was trying to retrieve the pistol from unconscious cop. Not some huge jacked bad guy, but emotionally motivated -- two cops were obese and timid, and the other overweight and female (nothing against professional female cops).

In this case the bad guy died when he didn't have to -- it should be some rare occasion when 3 cops can't handle 1 suspect without killing him, so long as that suspect is unarmed. Poor selection and approval of candidates, and continued use of those poor candidates in real situations -- lead to a situation where a bad guy died instead of getting roughed up and put into cuffs.
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  #34  
Old 11 December 2017, 08:10
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Originally Posted by CB View Post
Premeditation = Thought about it, planned, it, killed in the exercise of cool reflection and deliberation. That would justify First Degree Murder, but clearly did not apply in this case.

Second Degree Murder = Un-preplanned, unjustified, unlawful but intentional killing of another.

He meant to point the rifle, he meant to pull the trigger (five times) he meant to kill the victim, but it was unjustified and unlawful.
Thank you. I didn't really know the difference. I guess this incident was centered around the 'unjustified' aspect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronCross View Post
Very educational, I concur with your assessment.
I also thought it unlikely that anyone including me would be good at handling the kind of pressure the officer placed on the suspect. I would have probably screwed up and gotten myself killed.

I suppose my question is, based on yours and M06's posts is-what can be done about this? Aggressive focus on de-escalation training? More selective entry and exit requirements at academies?
I don't know if entry requirements is a factor here, but the standards must be the best possible in any circumstance. Second, I think communication between the officers on scene would have helped a LOT. Third, there were too many moving 'pieces' (suspects).

I my opinion, I think it would have been better to prone out the suspect, then wait until things settled down. Once the other suspect(s) are secured, talk out a plan to approach the prone suspect. During the whole process, any direction direction given to the suspect would be simple and concise.

Having situational exercises in a motel/hotel environment would help as well. Maybe as a part of in-service training.

I definitely think this incident is a teachable moment for LEOs in general. It would be worth the effort for LEOs discuss and test different approaches to non-kinetically solve the solve the problem; and still go home at end-of-watch.

Like Sharky stated: 1*
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  #35  
Old 11 December 2017, 08:40
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THIS

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Originally Posted by Five-O View Post
The "You're fucked" etching on the officers dust cover is something an air softer would have, not a professional LEO. I question the officers chain of command for allowing it if they knew of it; and I question the leadership if they did not know about it. Some may find it has no relevance to this bad shooting but I would say it calls into question the officers mindset, maturity, sensibility and common sense. It is obviously a good thing he is no longer a police officer.
Behind EVERY fucked-up officer there is AT LEAST one fucked-up supervisor, but bad bosses never feel the heat.
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  #36  
Old 11 December 2017, 10:15
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Now that he's been found not guilty I'm assuming he'll sue for back pay and money from the city....wouldn't surprise me at all.

I only hope that in a civil trial the family can take his house, cars and assets because they will allow the video in evidence.

Justice is once again vacant, just another American citizen dead at the hands of law enforcement. Nothing will change.
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  #37  
Old 11 December 2017, 18:09
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Originally Posted by Five-O View Post
The "You're fucked" etching on the officers dust cover is something an air softer would have, not a professional LEO. I question the officers chain of command for allowing it if they knew of it; and I question the leadership if they did not know about it. Some may find it has no relevance to this bad shooting but I would say it calls into question the officers mindset, maturity, sensibility and common sense. It is obviously a good thing he is no longer a police officer.
I know many people that have things like this on their weapons. I agree as to the childishness of it.
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
1*..... No matter what, he made damn sure he was the one who went home that night.
Ugh. I detest this whole "safety is #1" mentality. In several professions, not only is your personal safety NOT #1, it's often not #2 or #3.
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Originally Posted by SHHINT View Post
Fuck, I have nothing except what the fuck were his other officers doing? No one put the brakes on that colossal cluster fuck.
It was a really weird audio tape. In parts of it, the speaker sounds very cool and collected, not adrenaline filled as you would expect. I still fail to understand why they didn't just have him lie still and approach him while he was proned out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Its got to do with a generation of kids who were helicopter parented and never got punched in the face once growing up and doing nothing but watching violent movies and playing first person shooter video games where they rehearse the slaughter of their fellow citizens for thousands of hours instead of doing normal kids things.

Now these millenials have grown up to be a bunch of sick fucks wandering around with badges and assault rifles and countless hours of being conditioned to shoot out the "pelvic girdle" and what not instead of being taught basic skills like de-escalating conflicts.
I found that being punched repeatedly in the face definitely helped my deescalation skills.
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  #38  
Old 11 December 2017, 20:33
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It was a really weird audio tape. In parts of it, the speaker sounds very cool and collected, not adrenaline filled as you would expect. I still fail to understand why they didn't just have him lie still and approach him while he was proned out.
I think there was still an unaccounted male from the initial report. Possible concern for him laying in wait in the room? He had already returned to another room.
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  #39  
Old 12 December 2017, 02:25
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I found the tone of voice and words used to be very odd. I couldn't tell if they seemed like they were overcompensating, too wordy because he was trying to hide how freaked out he was...or if he had just already made up his mind he was going to shoot the guy.

Also not sure why the kids reached for his back while crawling, but either way it would seem like the officer could see his back at that point and see if he had a weapon. The kid wasn't really giving off any physical signs that he intended to be violent, which is really damning for the officer (except when its not apparently)....

Sad mess all around.
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  #40  
Old 12 December 2017, 10:22
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Unfuckingbelievable.
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