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  #21  
Old 10 November 2018, 15:04
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Part of the problem resides in the widespread belief that some old person in robes had to physically declare something "unconstitutional" before certain people will accept that it is so. Its a form of social conditioning/mental illness. Tangential to that fact is the absolute stubborn refusal of people to admit that something IS unconstitutional just because some robe-wearing subversive says it is fine.

The inability of good people to think and/or to make decisions for themselves is crippling. The rest just don't care because "I've got a mortgage to pay".
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  #22  
Old 12 November 2018, 14:55
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I think DD has a point. My (admittedly amateur) understanding is that UNTIL some law is declared unconstitutional after suitable process, brought by plaintiff(s) with standing, it is constitutional by default... therefore it will be enforced.
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  #23  
Old 12 November 2018, 15:15
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Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Personally I do not believe one has any need to personally own a firearm, and I do not of course own any myself.
...and as an America, that is your right.

But....there are other free-born Americans that will and do. And that is their right.
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  #24  
Old 12 November 2018, 17:27
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Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
...and as an America, that is your right.

But....there are other free-born Americans that will and do. And that is their right.
DH,
I think he was being sarcastic
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  #25  
Old 12 November 2018, 19:13
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Everyone knows he lost all his guns in a boating accident. His boat hit my boat, and all firearms were lost at sea.
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If gun control laws controlled crime, we wouldn't need cops.
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Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
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  #26  
Old 13 November 2018, 08:09
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Everyone knows he lost all his guns in a boating accident. His boat hit my boat, and all firearms were lost at sea.
While trying to pull both of your boats out, mine sank... mainly because DHs boat is too damn big.
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  #27  
Old 13 November 2018, 08:11
Gsniper Gsniper is offline
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I donated all my guns to one of those turn in your gun and get $100 things back about a decade ago. I feel much safer now that I'm unarmed.
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  #28  
Old 13 November 2018, 15:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-rgr View Post
I think DD has a point. My (admittedly amateur) understanding is that UNTIL some law is declared unconstitutional after suitable process, brought by plaintiff(s) with standing, it is constitutional by default... therefore it will be enforced.
I really wish I could find it but I saw a video interview of a D- Representative several years ago being asked about the Constitutionality of a certain law. His response was, effectively, "We just make the laws we think we need. It is up to the Supreme Court to determine if they are Constitutional."
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  #29  
Old 14 November 2018, 02:36
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
DH,
I think he was being sarcastic
Yeah, I saw another thread where he was describing his daily carry weapon....sarcasm is hard for me to “get” on a computer, let alone real-life.....
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  #30  
Old 14 November 2018, 12:08
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I'm not buying any of your sinking boat stories and am still coming for them. I'm starting with all the Parker two barrel shotguns and working my way down the list. Don't worry thought, I will stop just before I get to the Ravens and Hi-Points.
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  #31  
Old 15 November 2018, 11:02
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What happens to cops and/or Servicemembers if someone has a Red Flag dropped on them by a family member, "friend", or neighbor?

If the cops are coming to your house and carting off your Glock and AR....I'm guessing there's a problem if you are in a career where you carry firearms at work....
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  #32  
Old 15 November 2018, 11:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snake View Post
What happens to cops and/or Servicemembers if someone has a Red Flag dropped on them by a family member, "friend", or neighbor?

If the cops are coming to your house and carting off your Glock and AR....I'm guessing there's a problem if you are in a career where you carry firearms at work....

the Lautenberg amendment will cause BIG problems for those folks if they are convicted or under a restraining order
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  #33  
Old 15 November 2018, 12:02
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Yeah, the Lautenberg retroactive additional punishment bullshit was another one of those special exception bullshit circumstances that only seem to happen to gun control related, freedom restricting issues. Just like the "deemed passed" Hughes NFA amendment and the Miller USSC NFA uncontested ruling. S/F....Ken M
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  #34  
Old 15 November 2018, 12:41
Azatty Azatty is offline
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Originally Posted by X-rgr View Post
I think DD has a point. My (admittedly amateur) understanding is that UNTIL some law is declared unconstitutional after suitable process, brought by plaintiff(s) with standing, it is constitutional by default... therefore it will be enforced.
That's sort of a chicken-and-egg issue. The problem is that courts recognize the Legislature's and Executive's constitutionally-granted authority to create and enforce laws, and generally speaking courts presume that those laws enacted by bodies having authority are constitutional. However, an unconstitutional law is void from the beginning, which means that no punishment can be levied for a violator and it really can't be enforced. But unless the law is facially unconstitutional, such as a specific content-based restriction on speech such as "no person shall state that Sharky is gay" or a law that allows me to make KidA my slave (not in a gay way), the law will likely be enforced until someone who is injured by the law challenges it.
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  #35  
Old 15 November 2018, 15:10
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So you are saying that Sharky and KidA have standing?
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  #36  
Old 15 November 2018, 16:16
Bakertaylor28 Bakertaylor28 is offline
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No, as a general rule any given statute is not "constitutional by default" because even if the statute itself is perfectly constitutional and the statute is merely applied in an unconstitutional manner what we have is an "As-applied" unconstitutionality of the statute. As an example, This is how portions of the CPPA act got struck down in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition. However, this gets balanced with the qualified immunity doctrine- which looks at whether the judicial precident is well established to the point that a reasonable officer cannot establish a legal theory that would permit their actions to be possibly upheld by the court. The problem with qualified immunity in turn, is that it is a one-hit wonder because the courts are very quick to form clearly established law in the setting of 42 USC 1983. Where LE has to be careful, is that even if you have qualified immunity under Section 1983, one has to still be cognizant of the civil RICO provision at 18 U.S.C. 1964(c).
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  #37  
Old 15 November 2018, 17:05
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^^^This is why lawyers are frequently frowned upon. Legal speak is much longer and drawn out than it needs to be, as well as intentionally confusing.
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  #38  
Old 15 November 2018, 23:30
Azatty Azatty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckMarshal View Post
So you are saying that Sharky and KidA have standing?
KidA would have standing because heÂ’s now my slave. Sharky, on the other hand, would probably have standing if he wished to proclaim to the world that he is gay, but is now prevented from doing so. But thatÂ’s a quick and dirty analysis based on SharkyÂ’s articulatable injury and not for other reasons that may exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakertaylor28
Your post
That the executive can enforce a law in a manner that makes the law unconstitutional does not render the law unconstitutional in its drafting. The U.S. Supreme Court has invoked the presumption of constitutionality since the early 19th Century, if not longer, when statutes are challenged. See e.g. Fletcher v. Peck, 10 U.S. 87, 128-29 (1810).

I agree that from an advocate’s point of view one does not presume constitutionality, but as a subject matter expert on 1983 actions, you already know that the person asserting that a statute is unconstitutional—as written or as applied—has the burden of proving that position.

If laws are not constitutional “by default” then the judiciary effectively controls the legislative and executive branches because no law can truly be valid or encorced until it is tested by the judiciary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAFO
Your post
I was going to blame you for that, but I suppose there are limits on what can be hanged on you.
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  #39  
Old 16 November 2018, 00:07
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Sooooo, you agree with my post? Thanks counselor
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  #40  
Old 16 November 2018, 10:37
Azatty Azatty is offline
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Sooooo, you agree with my post? Thanks counselor
Oh no, your line with the First International Bank of Faults and Fuckups still has ample credit available. I simply recognize that it isn’t fair to blame you for lawyers—we crawled out of the primordial goo long before you came on the scene.
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