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  #241  
Old 4 January 2009, 18:55
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Originally Posted by okami1 View Post
" I think what I thought sounded off about that quote was that it made it sound like the recipients of the jihadi message would be satisfied with the "above-ground" activities and not follow the path to violence. That doesn't seem likely. Am I wrong?
Its just like any other message. Some hear it and respond, others hear it and say, "that is nuts" and still others hear it and say, "meh".

Recommended reading on the subject: Globalized Islam by Oliver Roy, The War For Muslim Minds by Gilles Kepel, Understanding Terror Networks by Marc Sageman

[/end hijack]
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  #242  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:01
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Originally Posted by okami1 View Post
The quote by Benjamin Franklin that Jimbo posted doesn't sound like ambiguous language at all, and the sentiment that it expresses is most certainly not anachronistic.
While I agree with that (Franklin) statement on some level, I also feel that we already give up freedoms in order for security. Just as total freedom is anarchy, the antithesis of that would be total subjugation. While neither apply in this country, a medium is maintained. It is required that a functioning society gives up freedoms so that law and order can be maintained. The question is obviously how much freedom should be given and how many restrictions should be imposed? That is a subjective matter that I think each person should make for themselves, however it is the government that makes that decision for us (influenced by our representative democracy, as we do not have a direct democracy)

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The Constitution is a dynamic and evolving document that will be continually interpreted as our society evolves. I would argue that the language of the Constitution is kept purposefully vague in some places to allow us the latitude we feel appropriate in interpreting it. Think of the 2nd Amendment.
This a reason I feel that the first amendment should be reviewed for the dangers of the Islamic fundamentalism. Not to get rid of the first amendment, but to allow for laws that prohibit the kind of environments that foster Islamic fundamentalist behavior. As much as certain 'liberals' try to make the case that the second amendment is an "antiquated" amendment and needs to be redesigned in order to comply with more modern circumstances (of which I vehemently disagree with), the same could be said for the first amendment.....ESPECIALLY for matter such as this (HAMAS supporters on the video). Actively supporting the enemy of your country (either by speech, or by fighting beside them) should NOT be tolerated on any level. I believe that is called sedition.


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What happened to Fish78?
??
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  #243  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:02
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Originally Posted by okami1 View Post
"Aha!" moment.

I understand better now, thanks. I think what I thought sounded off about that quote was that it made it sound like the recipients of the jihadi message would be satisfied with the "above-ground" activities and not follow the path to violence. That doesn't seem likely. Am I wrong?
I think you might want to go do some research on what jihad actually is and means in its RELIGIOUS context instead of what the media and pop culture construes it as
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  #244  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:04
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DirtyDevilDog,
This thread is drifting WAAAAAAAAY off course. If you want to start a new thread about the Constitution and our Founding Fathers, please feel free to do so in the Lounge, as the subject has very little to do with Terrorism or Asymmetric Warfare.

Thanks.
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  #245  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:05
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
While I agree with that (Franklin) statement on some level, I also feel that we already give up freedoms in order for security. Just as total freedom is anarchy, the antithesis of that would be total subjugation. While neither apply in this country, a medium is maintained. It is required that a functioning society gives up freedoms so that law and order can be maintained. The question is obviously how much freedom should be given and how many restrictions should be imposed? That is a subjective matter that I think each person should make for themselves, however it is the government that makes that decision for us (influenced by our representative democracy, as we do not have a direct democracy)
You have a twisted (and wrong) perception about the role of government and the relationship between the people and the government (especially when it comes to this country). While your statement makes logical sense (in the if A=B and B=C then A=C sense), it does NOT make sense in the context of this country's government and the people, or even how most first world governments operate.
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  #246  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:10
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Back to the original subject:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7810804.stm

Ground forces have cut Gaza in two. Let's see if they've been listening to SOTB.
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  #247  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:18
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Back to the original subject:
Thank you.
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  #248  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:22
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Sorry bout that.
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  #249  
Old 4 January 2009, 20:22
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Originally Posted by Greenhat
Ground forces have cut Gaza in two. Let's see if they've been listening to SOTB.
I've never set foot in Israel, and certainly not in Gaza, but I was wondering how difficult it would have been for the Israelis to cut off the exit of Palestinians through the border with Egypt, and of course the sea, all the while advancing on Gaza City (part of that question/commentary is rhetorical, since large swaths of desert and seashore are not simple to guard)? Because, one would hope that if they don't have the plan of evicting all Palestinians from Gaza (which would demonstrate that they were NOT listening to me -- LOL), then maybe they can kill enough of the Hamas leadership and current fighters, so that new Hamas leadership and fighters would take awhile to bring up to speed. Or maybe the decision was to leave an exit for Hamas leadership to make a run for it -- although I hope that is not the case.

I certainly don't have any special satellite feed of the battlefield, but I don't recall seeing any coverage of massive waves of bulldozers -- which I think should be an integral and primary part of their offensive....
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  #250  
Old 4 January 2009, 21:21
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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
.... Because, one would hope that if they don't have the plan of evicting all Palestinians from Gaza (which would demonstrate that they were NOT listening to me -- LOL), then maybe they can kill enough of the Hamas leadership and current fighters, so that new Hamas leadership and fighters would take awhile to bring up to speed. Or maybe the decision was to leave an exit for Hamas leadership to make a run for it -- although I hope that is not the case.

I certainly don't have any special satellite feed of the battlefield, but I don't recall seeing any coverage of massive waves of bulldozers -- which I think should be an integral and primary part of their offensive....
It's hard to tell, but I think the scope of the ground invasion is surgical, if the rockets can't be stopped or Hamas doesn't capitualte in some fashion well....
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  #251  
Old 4 January 2009, 21:27
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....I think the scope of the ground invasion is surgical....
BLOW!

Homo....
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  #252  
Old 4 January 2009, 21:43
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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
BLOW!

Homo....
Well surgical in the manuver warfare sense, supply lines, communications, infrastucture, leadership etc etc.

I think there will be some bulldozers.

Or I'm totally wrong and in two days we'll see the entire local population standing on the beach. :-D
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  #253  
Old 5 January 2009, 01:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat View Post
Back to the original subject:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7810804.stm

Ground forces have cut Gaza in two. Let's see if they've been listening to SOTB.
They've also taken the Philidephi route and the sea blockade is still up.

They're fucked. :D
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  #254  
Old 5 January 2009, 01:32
foxcolt13 foxcolt13 is offline
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It sounds like the Palistinians are joining factions to fight the Israeli's.


"The Israeli aggression is directed against all the Palestinians and their cause," the Fatah leader said. "This is the time to join forces in combating the Israeli occupation."

Reports about Fatah gunmen involved in the fighting came despite allegations that Hamas had placed dozens of Fatah activists under house arrest and killed others out of fear that they would exploit the IDF operation to undermine the Hamas government. The Jerusalem Post today.

Oh so its help us fight and we won't kill you.
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  #255  
Old 5 January 2009, 01:40
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Oh so its help us fight and we won't kill you.
Doesn't that really mean: "help us fight and the Israelis will kill you"?
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  #256  
Old 5 January 2009, 01:49
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Doesn't that really mean: "help us fight and the Israelis will kill you"?
Thats a good point. I would hate to be in their ranks.
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  #257  
Old 5 January 2009, 01:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
Doesn't that really mean: "help us fight and the Israelis will kill you"?
One certainly hopes so. But I still have my doubts. The July War had a lot of hopes too.

No matter the Israeli response, I wonder if Fatah won't be tempted to jump in on this to gain support of the populace of voters that Hamas wooed. So what if Fatah is openly viewed as both corrupt and incompetent. 3rd World voters are notoriously populist and VERY fickle. Throw in some free bread and hummus, in boxes/bags showing pics of Fatah mortar positions -- and hey, you've got the start of a political campaign for the next elections....
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  #258  
Old 5 January 2009, 07:49
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Throw in some free bread and hummus, in boxes/bags showing pics of Fatah mortar positions
Nothing like a good ol' Fatah showbag!

Looks like the current situation in Gaza has heightened Israeli/Jewish security world-wide...I work in an area heavily populated by Jews and noticed within the past few weeks alot more visible PSD/security personnel in the neighbourhood. Well, as least I think they're security...guys in black suits, sun-glasses, comm earpiece...and of course the Kippah.

God bless the the men and women of the IDF...hopefully their blood will not be spilt in vain...
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  #259  
Old 5 January 2009, 10:05
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Nothing like a good ol' Fatah showbag!


God bless the the men and women of the IDF...hopefully their blood will not be spilt in vain...
There^. They need to finish this op, ie take it father than Israel has gone in years. Otherwise it will have been in vain.

My sisters town is in range, she's pregnant with two kids. Go IDF! And God give the politicians some fucking backbone.
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  #260  
Old 5 January 2009, 10:48
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Has Israel provided any details on what they expect the end result of this operation to be? I'm finding it tough to sift through all the reporting for the interesting details. Most media (if not all), both traditional and online, are too busy attempting to place blame rather than gain an actual understanding of what this means.
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