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  #261  
Old 5 January 2009, 11:21
mags123 mags123 is offline
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The stated goal is to end the rocket attacks on Israeli settlements and towns.

The goal is not necessarily to permanently remove the HAMAS organization, but rather remove elements of the military wing and hope for negotiations from a strengthen position with the political wing of HAMAS.

Although the Lebanon war of of 2006 has been viewed as a catastrophe for Israel, the northern border has been calm and quiet for 2.5 years now.

I think Israel would be very happy with any truce / ceasefire that resulted in 2-3 years of no rocket attacks.
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  #262  
Old 5 January 2009, 11:25
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I think Israel would be very happy with any truce / ceasefire that resulted in 2-3 years of no rocket attacks.
That and a decapitated Hamas leadership that they focused on achieving in the first few days of their initial response.
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  #263  
Old 5 January 2009, 11:33
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Although the Lebanon war of of 2006 has been viewed as a catastrophe for Israel, the northern border has been calm and quiet for 2.5 years now.

....
It was a catastrophe with an un-intended result, it stregthened Hezbollah enough politically so that they now have alot more to lose should they draw fire again. Yea, you have not heard a peep from them since this started other then the usual mouthing off, checkmate.

I was hoping to see somethign done against Iran's nuclear sites by Israel before Jan 20th, I guess this has to wait. I don't buy that the sites are too spread out and hardened against effective attack, all defenses are eventually turned into monuments.
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  #264  
Old 5 January 2009, 11:50
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It was a catastrophe with an un-intended result, it stregthened Hezbollah enough politically so that they now have alot more to lose should they draw fire again. Yea, you have not heard a peep from them since this started other then the usual mouthing off, checkmate.

I was hoping to see somethign done against Iran's nuclear sites by Israel before Jan 20th, I guess this has to wait. I don't buy that the sites are too spread out and hardened against effective attack, all defenses are eventually turned into monuments.
Good point re defenses. The Maginot Line comes to mind!
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  #265  
Old 5 January 2009, 11:56
mags123 mags123 is offline
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As I'm sure you know, Xdeth, the situation in the Levant is too unstable and too fluid for one to hope for anything other than temporary solutions that MAY lead to more permanent results.

For all the rhetoric and grand statements in Israeli politics, the leadership is pragmatic enough to understand that 2-3 years of peace and calm is worth its weight in gold.

There are simply too many variables and unknowns to point draw the conclusion that the Lebanon war of 2006 directly led to the strengthening of Hezbollah. Who knows what might have happened without that conflict?

As for Iran - Hoping for an attack at this moment is rather like hoping for world-peace. Israel is most likely coming to terms with a nuclear armed Iran. I think the rest of the world should as well.
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  #266  
Old 5 January 2009, 12:03
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I was hoping to see somethign done against Iran's nuclear sites by Israel before Jan 20th, I guess this has to wait.
Why? Because Israel is too busy right now? I'd say this Gaza op could be a crafty way to 1) make everyone think Israel is just that, too busy, and 2) pull up enough reservists for both jobs without attracting attention.

Just a thought.
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  #267  
Old 5 January 2009, 12:16
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....
Israel is most likely coming to terms with a nuclear armed Iran. I think the rest of the world should as well.
I don't want to get off the subject of the thread, but that's a sad reality no one should accept until the second test fire, we have a long way to go until then.
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  #268  
Old 5 January 2009, 12:31
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Nice try but he wasn't attacking you, he was giving you a backhanded compliment while at the same time questioning your motives.

That "attack the person" counter works well when the discussion centers around political ideology but not as well in a thread where facts need to be used.

You comments, IMO, appear fairly simplistic and niave, so I can see how someone would find it difficult to take them seriously.

At some point people who have much more experience than you get frustrated trying to counter points that aren't on the same level as others points of disagreement or agreement are, since it is mentally tiring to be drug down to the level it requires for a response.

That's not attacking you either, it's just commentary on how your posts read and the points that are contained within them.
Hmm. Well, I definitely didn't see the backhanded compliment, but hey, I'm not familiar with all the personalities around here. It just seems to me like certain people are trying to "win" discussions as they would a military engagement, brute force style.

Anyway, about simplicity, I figured it would be best to keep things simple. Guys here are smart, they can read between the lines. Nobody wants to read a big long complicated argument.

You are right about experience, and I'd be the first to admit this. I'm not a BTDT yet, but I do have a lot of experience with Islam and the Middle East as a civilian. I haven't been in battle in Iraq, but I have attended schools in Yemen. I've walked through their gun markets where gand grenades were selling for $20/pop and RPG rockets going for around $90. I've attended prayer sessions at mosques in Jordan. I've been locked in jail cells in Baalbeck, Lebanon, right across the street from a mosque with Hezbollah flags flying all over it. I've seen a Nazi flag hang from a mosque in Qatar. From the West Bank to Syria to the UAE, I've been pretty much everywhere in that part of the world. I've also seen for myself the Muslim areas in Paris, UK, and other parts of Europe. Everything Bruce Bawer says in "While Europe Slept" is spot on the truth. I've read the Quran in Arabic, or at least most of it. I've studied the Hadiths and history of Islam. I've seen all the different cultures that part of the world has to offer. And while differences do of course exist, to a very large extent all the cultures are largely the same. And they are the same because of one thing - ISLAM.

I don't claim to be some kind of Islamic scholar, but I've had more than enough experience with Islam and all the various cultures produced by it to say a few things. Islam IS as much about politics as it is spirituality. It is the unquestionable driving force behind terrorism. It is unquestionably the driving force behind the behavior of the entire Middle Eastern world. It is unquestionably the driving force behind their governments. And it's absolutely a threat to any kind of free government, especially the Constitution. Anybody who believes that "Islam = peace" propaganda has no idea what they're talking about. They are the ones that are naive.

I'm not spouting off about something I read in a book during college. I say what I say because I've seen it with my own two eyes.
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  #269  
Old 5 January 2009, 12:35
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You are right about experience, and I'd be the first to admit this. I'm not a BTDT yet, but I do have a lot of experience with Islam and the Middle East as a civilian. I haven't been in battle in Iraq, but I have attended schools in Yemen. I've walked through their gun markets where gand grenades were selling for $20/pop and RPG rockets going for around $90. I've attended prayer sessions at mosques in Jordan. I've been locked in jail cells in Baalbeck, Lebanon, right across the street from a mosque with Hezbollah flags flying all over it. I've seen a Nazi flag hang from a mosque in Qatar. From the West Bank to Syria to the UAE, I've been pretty much everywhere in that part of the world. I've also seen for myself the Muslim areas in Paris, UK, and other parts of Europe. Everything Bruce Bawer says in "While Europe Slept" is spot on the truth. I've read the Quran in Arabic, or at least most of it. I've studied the Hadiths and history of Islam. I've seen all the different cultures that part of the world has to offer. And while differences do of course exist, to a very large extent all the cultures are largely the same. And they are the same because of one thing - ISLAM.
You haven't been to one Islamic nation that isn't Arab, yet you claim all the cultures are the same because of Islam.

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  #270  
Old 5 January 2009, 13:08
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Anybody who believes that "Islam = peace" propaganda has no idea what they're talking about.
I happen to agree with you on that point. I'm not convinced genocide is the answer though.

This most recent post probably would have served you better as one of your first posts in this thread vice being forced out of you. While some of your conclusions will end up being debated, as GH has noted already, it does bring a bit more meat to the table for you.

I've never seen a Nazi flag hang outside of a mosque in my travels. I'd like to see a picture of that.
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  #271  
Old 5 January 2009, 14:08
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You haven't been to one Islamic nation that isn't Arab, yet you claim all the cultures are the same because of Islam.

I haven't spent time in South Asia, but the Persians aren't Arab, nor most of the nations in the horn of Africa. And the violence being stirred up in Europe/Russia generally hasn't come from Arab Muslims either.

How do you explain the problems in Europe? How do you explain the problems in Russia? How do you explain the problems in Africa? How do you explain the problems in India? Afghanistan also isn't part of the Middle East. Arab culture isn't the cause of problems in Nigeria, it's ISLAM!

How do you explain the findings of the Mapping Sharia project? Their studies indicate that 3/4 mosques in the USA preach anti-Western extremism.

http://www.mappingsharia.us/

One of the most radical guys I've ever come across was a British guy in the gulf. We were the only two white guys in an Arabic class. Rabid radical. I had a similar experience in Yemen as well, except it was an American.

When these guys convert to Islam in the west (or wherever) who do they seek out? They seek out the Islamic scholars, and where do they live? They live in the Middle East. What societies do they use as a model for their own? The ones in the Middle East. Where do the Imams at the mosques in the USA and Europe go for their training and their religious schooling? The Middle East. This is the whole logic behind the barbarism in Saudi Arabia. They are protecting the two holy mosques. Saudi Arabia is intended to be a pure example of Islamic society. So they say.

In the words of an Iraqi friend of mine, "we do not want the bill of rights or capitalism, we want Islam!"
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  #272  
Old 5 January 2009, 14:48
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I happen to agree with you on that point. I'm not convinced genocide is the answer though.

This most recent post probably would have served you better as one of your first posts in this thread vice being forced out of you. While some of your conclusions will end up being debated, as GH has noted already, it does bring a bit more meat to the table for you.
I don't think genocide is the answer either. I should never have used that word. Genocide is a word meant for a group of people, but I was trying to use it with a ideology/religion. Like genociding Naziism. Again, wrong word to use. In WWII we were targeting the ideology of Naziism and National Socialism, not Germans.

In that same way I see Islam as the enemy, not Muslims or Arabs or Persians or Indonesians or any groups of people or individual people.

I don't think we should go around forcing our way on the rest of the world. The people in the Middle East can live however the heck they want. It's their life, their problem. But when they threaten us I start beating the war drum.

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I've never seen a Nazi flag hang outside of a mosque in my travels. I'd like to see a picture of that.
I don't have a picture but I'll ask a friend of mine who might. It was the mosque across the street from the US Embassy in Qatar. My friend was a Marine guard at the embassy when this happened. He got a good, long look standing on top of the Embassy with binoculars. He might have taken a picture, or one of his fellow Marines probably did. I only got a glimpse. There was a big event that proceeded this but I can't remember what it was. May have been when Israel went into Lebanon in 06. Nothing actually happened though. They were just making a statement, hence the proximity to the US embassy and then took the flag down after a while.

If you've travelled in the Middle East I'm sure you've seen plenty of swastikas though. My goodness. I saw a swastika tee shirt even in the UAE. And all over the Arabian Peninsula I've seen swastikas spray painted on walls and buildings everywhere. There was one right outside a housing compound I lived in. I saw it when I drove by every day. It remained for well over a year and nobody went and painted over it. Painted in a perfect location so all the westerners in the compound would see it when they drove out every morning. They even took the time to spray it on properly, a diamond shape rather than a square.
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  #273  
Old 5 January 2009, 15:19
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Greenhat,

Here are two interesting articles on the subject.

http://dharmaveer.blogspot.com/2009/...cal-islam.html

Favorite quote, "In numerous Hadith, Muhammed says that the best muslim is not one who fasts and prays, but who gets on his horse and fights against infidels (especially polytheists) for the spread of Islam. That is what Bin Laden is doing. What about the innocent women and children he kills? Guess what - the Hadith emphatically state that it is perfectly alright to kill the women and children of polytheists. Nothing Bin Laden does is outside the Kuran and Hadith. He is not a "radical" muslim, he is merely a practising muslim!"

http://pajamasmedia.com/ronrosenbaum...-nazi-party-2/

"Hamas is not committed merely to the political goal of expelling Jews from the land of Israel but to what they believe is a sacred religious goal of exterminating all Jews everywhere behind every tree in creation."
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  #274  
Old 5 January 2009, 15:51
mags123 mags123 is offline
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Labeling a worldwide religion as "the enemy" will certainly only bring more harm to the shores of the US, and create suffering on a global scale.

I will be the first to acknowledge that Islam has some serious issues and contradictions within itself. It is a way of life and does not deal strictly with religious issues only.

But by painting a entire religion with one brush, you are playing right into the hands of the extremists.

As for HAMAS's statements - One must try to look past some of the firebrand rhetoric meant more for internal consumption than external. I believe HAMAS will negotiate if they feel it is in their best interest to do so.

Israel's challenge will be to show the more moderate political wing of HAMAS the error of their ways.
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  #275  
Old 5 January 2009, 16:01
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In that same way I see Islam as the enemy, not Muslims or Arabs or Persians or Indonesians or any groups of people or individual people.
I think the core of the disagreement can be boiled down to this - do you see the religion as the enemy, or the people who follow the religion.

My personal viewpoint is that Islam isn't the enemy, rather muslims who harbor backward thoughts are. You can kill muslims that want to kill us, make others think twice before attacking, convince/befriend those that are willing to abide by modern standards, but you can never truly eliminate the ideology, only the stucture that supports it.

Also, there are a whole host of local issues at play as well within Islam and countries that have issues between muslims and [insert local religion here]. In many cases, you have two somewhat uneducated populations at each others necks for various reasons. One just happens to be muslim.

Heck, put fundamentalist muslims from different sects or political factions within a room and see how it goes. Fatah and Hamas have been known to fight it out between each other. Power, religion, politics, uneducated and fickle masses make for a nice pot to stir.

My 2 cents...
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  #276  
Old 5 January 2009, 16:16
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I think the core of the disagreement can be boiled down to this - do you see the religion as the enemy, or the people who follow the religion.
I see the enemy in others also. There's plenty of non Islam following people who threaten my way of life as well. They need to be dealt with via as strong a hand as we deal with those that use Islam to threaten what we believe in.

Those that follow Islam and don't try to kill us, I'm cool with. Same way I'm cool with atheist, buddist, global warming advocates, catholics and any other belief. I may not agree with them and laugh at some of their antics but as long as they aren't trying to kill me or threaten my way of life, I can live with them just like others live with me.

So in a nut shell, the enemy is anyone who says he is my or my nations enemy or attacks my nation or it citizenry or is making plans to do so.
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  #277  
Old 5 January 2009, 16:32
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So in a nut shell, the enemy is anyone who says he is my or my nations enemy or attacks my nation or it citizenry or is making plans to do so.
Agreed. At the end of the day, whatever the motivation, they need to be fought to prevent our citizens and national interests from being harmed.
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  #278  
Old 5 January 2009, 18:05
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I see the enemy in others also. There's plenty of non Islam following people who threaten my way of life as well. They need to be dealt with via as strong a hand as we deal with those that use Islam to threaten what we believe in.

Those that follow Islam and don't try to kill us, I'm cool with. Same way I'm cool with atheist, buddist, global warming advocates, catholics and any other belief. I may not agree with them and laugh at some of their antics but as long as they aren't trying to kill me or threaten my way of life, I can live with them just like others live with me.

So in a nut shell, the enemy is anyone who says he is my or my nations enemy or attacks my nation or it citizenry or is making plans to do so.

Yep. X100
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  #279  
Old 5 January 2009, 20:20
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Any more posts that do not specifically refer to Israel and Gaza will be deleted (except for AGX's answers to the questions in this post: http://www.socnet.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=284)
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  #280  
Old 5 January 2009, 21:01
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Israeli military surrounds Gaza City

If they won't stop with the rockets, maybe they will be all standing on the beach?
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