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  #1  
Old 11 September 2001, 23:53
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garett garett is offline
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Notice To Move

Well I dropped into the Armories at 7 and ended up spending my night calling people and asking if they could deploy on 4 hours notice to move for a 48 hour tasking. Gotta love it when a valid excuse is "I'm in school". Good morning North America.......
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Old 12 September 2001, 00:27
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No shit? I just got back from parade and the only command guidance we got was to "no comment" the media and to sort out anyone who's fucking with Arabs over this.... Christ I don't even know WHAT to call it. And we're right on the border. All I know is, if the call for volunteers comes to help out our American brothers, any where, any reason, I'm gonna be there.
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  #3  
Old 13 September 2001, 00:57
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OK, does anyone know the CF's offical posture right now? Are we on a war footing? Or is there any talk of taking such measures?
Thing is.... shit, I don't know how to describe how I feel. All I know is, I was talking with my Mom on the phone tonight, and it hit me..... there are thousands of moms out there tonight who will never have the chance to give thier kid a call when they had every damn right to expect to be able to do that. This insanity, this complete disregard for the lives of innocents who have not chosen to take the risks associated with being a soldier has GOT TO FUCKING STOP. I guess my question is: Does anyone know, for sure, if the CF is going to put together a contingent to help the Americans out if the US choses to start hitting targets on the ground? And will Res infanteers be given an option to augment whatever Reg Force guys they send? If given the means and opportunity, I have no qualms or second thoughts about volunteering to go across the world to end the existence of men who would pull something this depraved.
This could have as easily happened in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, or Calgary, if they had hijacked a few more airliners. Enough is enough. We need to send a message to Jean and Co. that this HAS to stop NOW, and there are guys in the CF who are ready and willing to take the steps and make the sacrifices needed.
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  #4  
Old 13 September 2001, 01:31
Enfield Enfield is offline
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Ok, I haven't paraded yet - tomorrow I go in - but I don't expect my unit to say much of anything. I do know that 39 Brigade here in Vancouver set up a "spcial operations" center to manage a potential Militia call-up, and had vehicles moved away from its building. Fighters and Auroras were also moved to Comox.
IF we were to send people south, it would be the Disaster Assistance Relief Team (DART) the same group that went to Central America and Turkey, maybe some medical or engineering teams. But honestly, given the relatively small numbers of personnel we could send (compared to what the US has) I doubt the CF will send anything - but I could be wrong. Ontario sent a mine rescue team already.

The PM has voiced support for the US and NATO, and it appears we are standing shoulder to shoulder with America on this one.

My opinion - and only my opinion - is that the CF will get little, if any, action out of this. JTF, the CF-18's, and some frigates may get some play time - but I can't see the Mo' being needed. I doubt conventional land forces will be needed in this one, let alone Canadian grunts. RCMP and CSIS will be working hard, sinc eit looks like some of the terrorists came from NS. Look towards the upcoming Summit in BC for some hevay duty security activity....

Hopefully the huge security implications will make Parliament wake up and give the CF and other agencies the resources needed. Certainly, the rules have changed now.

Enfield
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  #5  
Old 13 September 2001, 14:55
FNG FNG is offline
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Thumbs up

Judging from the support we gave to the Coalition during the Gulf War, I would expect our contribution to be nothing more than some CSS elements, along with naval and air tactical support. If we establish ground logistical support in a combat zone as well, we'll likely send some infantry and MPs to guard these facilities.

A few of you have just graduated QL3, so you'll find out that nothing moves quickly in Canada. It'll likely be many weeks before
we hear of any military response to this incident. The US has to nail down who is responsible first. That alone will take weeks. Then there will be endless deliberations in their government and ours as to what level of response is appropriate.
It will then take another few weeks to plan and deploy.

Like all of you here, I am eager to help out in any way, whether that be disaster relief, or further action. School can wait. My kit is packed, and I'm ready to go. Just waiting for the word.
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  #6  
Old 13 September 2001, 15:47
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My neighbour is a Cpl. in 4ESR and he spent yesterday getting vehicles ready to go. All I know is that units are on alert, there was a warning order sent out. I'm going to try and find out more tonight at work. I'm in an odd position since I'm a phase 2 trained 2LT, so I'm basically useless. If the shit hits the fan I think I'll be on a Phase 3 pretty damn quick but thats about it.

Just heard my first aircraft fly over my house in a few days...... Will there ever be a return to "normalcy"?

[This message has been edited by garett (edited 09-13-2001).]
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  #7  
Old 13 September 2001, 18:36
enderr enderr is offline
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We were told class A militia bums aren't required, but there is that Chapter 5 agreement, and 1RCR is probably on standby and will probably require augmentees from LFCA. Hmmm, see what happens.
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  #8  
Old 13 September 2001, 19:05
Infanteer Infanteer is offline
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One thing...if it turns out that these terrorists used Canada as a springboard Jean Cretian is not going to have much choice in increasing defence and security measures. Some members of the U.S. Congress and the CIA have been looking to us as the "Trojan Horse" for people seeking to launch attacks on the U.S. since the WTC '93 bombing and the capture of Achmed Ressam(sp?) at the border. If we indeed are the source for one of these attacks, the U.S. will come down hard on Canada to sort ourselves out and fall in.
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  #9  
Old 13 September 2001, 19:06
DonK DonK is offline
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Yeah...things are kinda busy here in Pet right now....
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  #10  
Old 13 September 2001, 21:06
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National Post today says that A COY, 1ST BATT of the Van Doos is on 1 hour recall, while the remainder of the batt is on 4 hour recall. Kinda funny when you figure that there is probably an entire fucking brigade of the 82nd sitting on an airstrip ready to be wheels up in ten minutes. God I hope this tragedy starts some wheels in the labryinths of Ottawa to start bringing manpower up to a warfighting level. Anyone else think this might save our airborne capability?
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  #11  
Old 13 September 2001, 22:14
DonK DonK is offline
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Nope. This Government doesn't give a flying F**k about Military preparedness...and our allies know it. An American officer a buddy of mine knew over in Germany told him that when it comes to military assistance..."The Canadian Government will promise you the world, and then deliver nothing you want or need..." Seems our citizens have a habit of voting in weak-kneed types... If Jean and his gang on the Hill try to pussy foot around backing out on our commitments w/ref to Article 5 of the NATO Treaty (mutual defence), the word of a Canadian will never worth a thing on the world stage. If push comes to shove, lets see if we send a Company of Infantry and a Field Hospital to the next War, like we did in the last....that's almost all we have left...

[This message has been edited by DonK (edited 09-13-2001).]
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  #12  
Old 14 September 2001, 09:06
Reverend B Reverend B is offline
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TONY!! Where the fuck are you? You must be BURNING!
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  #13  
Old 14 September 2001, 12:59
TonyM TonyM is offline
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You're right, I'm burning. Lot of shit piling up so fast I can't keep up.
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  #14  
Old 14 September 2001, 22:40
Enfield Enfield is offline
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From the DND webpage:
"Three hundred thirty one re-routed passengers are being housed at HMCS Cabot, the Naval Reserve unit in St. John's, and at Canadian Forces Station (CFS) St. John's. In Stephenville, Nfld, a platoon of 31 soldiers from the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment is providing support to authorities there. "

So, some Mo' got called out for this.
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  #15  
Old 17 September 2001, 03:52
Cree Warrior Cree Warrior is offline
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You are all forgeting your training!
We need to rationally and methodically go through everything that is happening and look at it from the perspective of our leadership. Here is a list of questions you must ask yourselves gentlemen:
1) Will there be safety violations if Canada goes to war?
2) Will talking of war increase levels of PTSD amongst our military?
3) Will our enemy feel marginalized if we attempt to neutralize them?
4) If Canada sends soldiers (ie ground) to war will this effect the enrollment rate of female recuits?


Sua Sponte
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  #16  
Old 17 September 2001, 12:19
FNG FNG is offline
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Doh! Guess I'll have to sign myself up for a Diversity/SHARP course.

Can anyone imagine what our response would be if Lloyd Axworthy was still Foreign Minister?

[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 09-17-2001).]
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  #17  
Old 19 September 2001, 04:12
Enfield Enfield is offline
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Don't know if anyone caught this in the National Post...

September 17, 2001


'We'd need a taxi to get us there': Mackenzie
Retired general: Canada's military ill-prepared for war on terror


By James Cudmore
National Post

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


EDMONTON - The federal government has slashed the budget and size of the military to such a degree that Canada would have little to offer if called to wage war against terrorists, says a high-profile retired general.

Major-General Lewis Mackenzie, who commanded UN soldiers during the siege of Sarajevo, said the federal government has failed to fund its military as required under the 1994 White Paper on Defence and that has left the country unable to contribute to an international effort against terrorists with anything less than a token force.

"We are not capable of carrying out the very instructions that the government of Canada has given the military," he said yesterday.

For example, the white paper called for Canada to be able to contribute a brigade-sized force of about 5,000 men for sustained overseas operations, Maj.-Gen. Mackenzie said. "But we haven't had a brigade exercise in nine years. Even to put together a brigade at wartime establishment would stress the entire Canadian army.... It's impossible.

"It's a little unethical to have an order from your civilian leadership that, because of their lack of support, you are not capable of carrying out."

It is too early to assess what Canada's contribution will be or what action will be taken, Maj.-Gen. Mackenzie said.

"Nobody knows, even the Americans to date, what they will need or ask of their allies," he said. "From the geopolitical point of view, and with great respect to my friends in the air force and the navy, you have to get your boots dirty and you have to be prepared for the potential for blood before you are taken seriously."

This would require the Canadian government to authorize the use of ground troops, a difficult task considering Canada's tiny standing army and the fact much of its force and equipment are scattered around the globe on NATO or UN intervention missions, the general said.

"The government has to realize that a ground contribution is important and I would suggest that the maximum that we could put together in a short period of time ... is a battle group of about 1,200 or 1,400."

Maj.-Gen. Mackenzie pointed out that even if Canada was asked to contribute such a force, we would be unable to deliver it to any theatre of operations without American military support, making Canada a potential liability, rather than an asset, he said.

"We would need a taxi to get us there. We don't have the strategic lift capability we would need to get anywhere and we don't have the infrastructure."

Maj.-Gen. Mackenzie warned that any Canadian contribution to a war on terrorism would likely be limited to small squadrons of CF-18s deployed overseas in potential attacks on terrorist camps or the states that give them shelter.

"We could get a couple of squadrons of CF-18s but even then we would need the Americans to provide their in-flight refueling capability to get them overseas," he said.

Canada's military contribution could also include the use of Joint Task Force 2, Canada's small and highly secretive special forces unit.

Although there is little official information about this force, the unit is believed to consist of approximately 250 intensely motivated and capable infantry soldiers modelled loosely on the famed British Special Air Service.

Like the SAS, the soldiers train extensively in reconnaissance, infiltration, sniping, parachuting, snatch operations and clandestine warfare.

Jean Chrétien, the Prime Minister refused to say what Canada's role in any military effort would be.

-----
And i found this one and couldn't resist adding it. No exactly on topic, but interesting.

Officers question risking soldiers' lives overseas
Canadian Defence report: Peacekeeping missions said to have little relevance


David Pugliese
Ottawa Citizen
OTTAWA - Canadian military officers are questioning whether it is worth putting soldiers' lives at risk on overseas missions as they cannot see how those operations serve national interests, according to a Department of National Defence report.

Many officers who took part in the Canadian Forces study said they could not identify "any important Canadian interest to be upheld which reasonably justified putting their troops in harm's way.''

More than 30% of those interviewed said they would automatically put the safety of their soldiers before accomplishing the mission. The officers noted that in such operations there tended to be no direct threat to Canada or Canadian values.

More than 800 officers -- veterans of missions to Bosnia, Somalia, Kosovo and other countries --were surveyed and from that pool more specific interviews and focus groups were conducted by the Defence Department.

The responses appear to support concerns by some military analysts that, increasingly, Canadian soldiers are being sent on overseas operations which have little direct relevance to Canadian affairs. The defence analysts also note Jean Chrétien's characterization of Canadian soldiers as ''boy scouts'' ready to be sent anywhere in the world on peacekeeping tasks.

Brig.-Gen. Charles Lemieux, who advises the Canadian Forces on professional development, said issues raised by the study highlight the complexities of peace support missions and efforts to defuse volatile situations in places such as Bosnia.

''Sometimes it's very difficult to try to understand what is your place in the overall framework the international community is trying to put together to try to resolve [conflicts],'' said Brig.-Gen. Lemieux, who has served in Bosnia and Africa.

The report notes some of the dilemmas faced by officers overseas. One officer described how he struggled with himself after having been given a dangerous mission -- which in the end he refused, because he could not reconcile its purpose with the dangers to which he would expose his troops.

Another officer did expose his soldiers to extreme danger, in which several minor casualties were incurred.

Retired Canadian Maj.-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie said he is not surprised officers are questioning the reasons behind some of their missions. In war, orders are to be followed quickly and there is no time for questioning decisions, he noted. ''But when you're in a bunker in Sarajevo and you're under fire and you get the latest missive from the UN Security Council and you read it and wonder, 'What group of idiots put this together?' then things can be seen differently,'' he said.

''You end up [following orders], but maybe not the way they anticipated. You do it in a safer way.''

Such events happen infrequently, added Maj.-Gen. MacKenzie, who rose to international prominence when commanding UN troops in the former Yugoslavia.

The study also identified a widespread distrust among the officers toward National Defence headquarters in Ottawa (NDHQ). Almost 50% of those interviewed expressed serious reservations about their chain of command and NDHQ.

''Superiors at NDHQ in the domains of personal attributes such as moral courage, accountability and loyalty to subordinates and knowledge/skill levels were rated significantly lower than other groups,'' the study noted.

But Brig.-Gen. Lemieux suggests part of the distrust officers have toward NDHQ is related to a common phenomenon for front-line troops to be skeptical and suspicious of headquarters. He also notes that the surveys covered missions of the past decade, and he believes the situation has since changed.

The report recommends changing the nature of the profession of arms in Canada. The officers of the future will need to develop a military ethos that retains the idea of the soldier as a warrior, while complementing it with the concepts of the soldier as diplomat and scholar.

Common training is also needed for soldiers who are quickly brought together from different units for overseas missions. Such training helps develop trust and confidence among the soldiers.

Officers also suggested they need a better understanding of the cultures they operate in during overseas missions.

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  #18  
Old 19 September 2001, 21:07
Infanteer Infanteer is offline
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Smile

General Mackenzie is becoming the Canadian version of Hackworth...he should start a weekly column and maybe bring a little light to the idiocy that goes on in Ottawa.
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  #19  
Old 19 September 2001, 22:24
Marauder
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... or just do what every Canadian grunt would love to see and start his own common sense party, lead the thing, and become PM next election. OK, maybe not *every* grunt, but c'mon, who doesn't think MacKenzie would solve the "limited" (I can't even type that wihtout rolling on the ground laughing hysterically LOL) funding we recieve?
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  #20  
Old 19 September 2001, 23:06
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garett garett is offline
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I think that the CF should start a 50/50 lotto ticket campaign and open a few Tim Horton's franchises on bases across Canada. We could always do what the Russians do, rent out our soldiers to private companies.
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