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  #1  
Old 15 May 2018, 12:02
meatpaws meatpaws is offline
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Los Angeles Civilian Board

I’m hoping this civilian review board thing doesn’t spread into the southeast, rulings like this show how stark the difference is between what LEOs deal with and what the public understands about it.

https://www.dailynews.com/2018/05/09...ng-in-sunland/

Maybe I should be waiting to post this till the report is released but I’m still wondering what it would take for a shooting to be justified by these people.
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  #2  
Old 15 May 2018, 13:32
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While I am in favor of genuine civilian oversight (amazing how some of the people who believe in that when it comes to the .mil think it should be different with LEO, I don't get that, sure, investigate yourselves, what's the problem with that.....) I'm not seeing how this isn't a good shoot. Only person hurt was the bad guy caught in flagrante delicto, who was promising to kill as many officers as possible. Outcome seems pretty much optimal.

I guess it comes down to having rational non-cop hating civilians on the board?
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Old 15 May 2018, 14:33
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Its political theater. Pure and simple. "I will demand an investigation..." Everyone rolls their eyes, the sheep all baahhhhh in agreement and hopefully the right thing happens. Sadly, its the last part that is always the least predictable.
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Old 15 May 2018, 15:05
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We could easily have a thread simply titled Civvy oversight of LE.

Subtitled; Getting worser by the day.

Here's one: "Chair of Baltimore police oversight panel clashed with officer during traffic stop after consent decree hearing"
And the link: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/mar...mpression=true

Or How about the Officer facing suspension for get this, Tackling an Ice-Axe wielding thief who'd already threatended the REI store employess where he stole the Axe.

Seriously, He tackled the clown and faces suspension.
Link: https://www.weaselzippers.us/383915-...eatening-cops/
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Old 15 May 2018, 15:05
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Sounds like the west coast version of COPA (Civilian Office of Police Accountability) used in Chicago, which is basically the same thing as its predecessor, IPRA (Independent Police Review Authority), just renamed to make everybody believe that it is new and improved.
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Old 15 May 2018, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
Its political theater. Pure and simple. "I will demand an investigation..." Everyone rolls their eyes, the sheep all baahhhhh in agreement and hopefully the right thing happens. Sadly, its the last part that is always the least predictable.
The only ludicrous aspect missing here is a racial component.
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Old 15 May 2018, 17:28
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I think civilian oversight can be a good thing. I mean, in addition to a mayor, city council etc etc etc...

But these things tend to attract unqualified campaigners who seek attention and validation rather than sober minded civic leaders.
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Old 15 May 2018, 19:57
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In Chicago, COPA and its predecessor, IPRA, were little more than political patronage arms for Mayor Emanuel, who appointed all the members of the board.

In fact one of his proteges that he appointed to head up IPRA, Lori Lightfoot, just threw her hat in the ring to run against Emanuel. I guess this is a case of biting the hand that fed you.
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  #9  
Old 15 May 2018, 21:02
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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IMHO the boards bring "feelings" and politics into the process. It is really a 4th Amendment standard - that is all.

Graham v. Connor
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/490/386/
(c) The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation. Pp. 490 U. S. 396-397.
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Old 16 May 2018, 08:16
meatpaws meatpaws is offline
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I agree that citizen oversight is good in theory - provided the citizens understand how to bring objectivity and intelligent investigatory methods into the situation. But as stated above, few will do that and instead rely on emotion to guide their decisions. Or they will bring their own prejudices to the table. Or they will try to pull their knowledge of the criminal justice system from television. I arrest people for active warrants all the time who demand they be released because I didn't advise them of their Miranda rights. On television, EVERYONE has their rights read to them.

I'm a citizen first and foremost so I understand the desire to have an outside agency investigate a critical incident response. Here in Georgia the GBI investigates most if not all officer involved shootings and questionable use of force situations. I trust the court judicial process more than a citizen review board because a jury of my peers will be supervised by a judge.
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Old 16 May 2018, 08:25
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatpaws View Post

I'm a citizen first and foremost so I understand the desire to have an outside agency investigate a critical incident response. Here in Georgia the GBI investigates most if not all officer involved shootings and questionable use of force situations. I trust the court judicial process more than a citizen review board because a jury of my peers will be supervised by a judge.
In Florida the majority of U of F incidents involve an outside agency investigation, largely done by FDLE or the Office of the State Attorney. However, some of the larger LE agencies still have their own IA conduct the investigation. The FDLE investigations are to collect facts - and not for FDLE to present a conclusion. Most often, the State Attorney will take those facts to a Grand Jury to come up with the conclusion - although there have been times that the State Attorney simply made the call.
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Old 16 May 2018, 13:00
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Originally Posted by meatpaws View Post
II arrest people for active warrants all the time who demand they be released because I didn't advise them of their Miranda rights. On television, EVERYONE has their rights read to them.
I had this exact thing happen less than an hour ago. Parole warrant, insisting we fucked up because we didn't read him his rights first. I just tell them to tell their lawyer that.
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  #13  
Old 16 May 2018, 17:19
Rich Gause Rich Gause is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
In Chicago, COPA and its predecessor, IPRA, were little more than political patronage arms for Mayor Emanuel, who appointed all the members of the board.
Because of this type of nonsense I think it might be better to use the jury pool system to assign people on jury duty to the review board, make it 1 day assignment or for however long it takes to finish reviewing the case. It couldn't be worse than some of the nonsense we see now. Maybe fill it with veterans first to at least ensure the jurors have some clue as to what justifiable use of force is...
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Old 16 May 2018, 20:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu King Lawyer View Post
IMHO the boards bring "feelings" and politics into the process. It is really a 4th Amendment standard - that is all.

Graham v. Connor
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/490/386/
(c) The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation. Pp. 490 U. S. 396-397.
This is where the review board in Chicago is running into trouble, they are trying to apply a different standard to cops. In fact, they are doing this retroactively by going back over old cases, some of them more than a decade and trying to put their "enlightened" spin on things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Gause View Post
Because of this type of nonsense I think it might be better to use the jury pool system to assign people on jury duty to the review board, make it 1 day assignment or for however long it takes to finish reviewing the case. It couldn't be worse than some of the nonsense we see now. Maybe fill it with veterans first to at least ensure the jurors have some clue as to what justifiable use of force is...
The only problem with that is that too many people have unrealistic expectations about use of force, especially in situations where the force maybe seem excessive but is entirely withing both a department's policy as well as the law.

I'm still amazed at the number of people who think a cop should "only shoot to wound". Of course when a cop is using deadly force he is trying to would somebody, badly enough that he is no longer a threat. But many out there think they should be doing stuff like shooting the gun or knife out of their hand, or shooting them in the legs (of course, there is always that pesky femoral artery to worry about).
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Old 16 May 2018, 21:16
meatpaws meatpaws is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
I had this exact thing happen less than an hour ago. Parole warrant, insisting we fucked up because we didn't read him his rights first. I just tell them to tell their lawyer that.
If they’re dicks I just act like I fucked up and pull the car over to make it look like they’re about to be released. When they start grinning I get back on the road and tell them they’ve been watching too much television. Occasionally I request that they exercise their right to be silent for my own sanity.
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Old 16 May 2018, 22:31
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Believeraz Believeraz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu King Lawyer View Post
IMHO the boards bring "feelings" and politics into the process. It is really a 4th Amendment standard - that is all.

Graham v. Connor
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/490/386/
(c) The Fourth Amendment "reasonableness" inquiry is whether the officers' actions are "objectively reasonable" in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. The "reasonableness" of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, and its calculus must embody an allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second decisions about the amount of force necessary in a particular situation. Pp. 490 U. S. 396-397.
The difference is the oversight boards rule as to whether or not the actions were within agency policy, and Graham doesn't apply to internal agency policy (although it should be the guideline). That's where the politics come in.

Take the LAPD helicopter sniping incident into effect...dude is shooting at the helicopter and personnel on it, with a rifle. Helo sniper returns fire and shoots him. Oversight board says it's outside of policy. Objectively reasonable? All day long. Does the oversight board care? Nope.
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Old 17 May 2018, 02:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meatpaws View Post
If they’re dicks I just act like I fucked up and pull the car over to make it look like they’re about to be released. When they start grinning I get back on the road and tell them they’ve been watching too much television.
Too funny. Still laughing 5 min later....
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Old 17 May 2018, 03:14
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Graham doesn't apply to internal agency policy
That makes zero sense.
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Old 17 May 2018, 07:48
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That makes zero sense.
Graham applies to the law. Internal policy can be more restrictive than the law. While use of force policy SHOULD model Graham, agencies are free to be more restrictive.

Case in point: if bad guy is attempting to run a cop over or pin them between their vehicle and a solid object, I think we can agree that it rises to the level of deadly force to stop that threat and seize (arrest) the bad guy. It has been tested in court many a time through the Graham lens and passed muster with no issues. PERF and other left-leaning policy orgs advocate policy of "absolutely no shooting into an occupied, moving vehicle". You can be right by the law and fucked via more restrictive policy.
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Old 17 May 2018, 08:37
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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Originally Posted by Believeraz View Post
Internal policy can be more restrictive than the law. .
^^^^^^^^^^

This is absolutely true. Things such as no warning shots, no firing into vehicles, back up and off duty weapons must be departmental approved, etc.

But I would suggest that if the use of force is objectively reasonable, under the law then any subsequent determination of whether the UofF was outside of policy, is an agency responsibility and a civilian oversight board adds nothing but a "good feeling" to those who want to give the impression the department is kinder, gentler, and caring.
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