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Old 7 March 2018, 12:58
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Interesting Court Ruling out of Seattle.

To summarize, "homeless" man lives in a truck on the street in Seattle. The truck was towed for being parked in the same spot for over 72 hours (in violation of city ordinances). He did not pay the impound fees, and the City intended to follow its usual protocols for unpaid impound fees (lien sale). "Homeless" man finds a lawyer that sues the City of Seattle, alleging this violated the "Homestead Act." The first court ruling found against the "homeless" man, but now, on appeal, a judge agrees.

Story can be found on Fox News, Q13 Fox Seattle, Seattle Times, if anyone wants to read it.

I find this interesting.

He was living in the truck by choice (Q13):

Quote:
“If I paid rent, I’d be broke all the time and I’d be depressed,” said Steven Long.
From the Seattle Times:

Quote:
King County Superior Court Judge Catherine Shaffer ruled that the city’s impoundment of Long’s truck violated the state’s homestead act — a frontier-era law that protects properties from forced sale — because he was using it as a home. Long’s vehicle was slated to be sold had he not entered into a monthly payment plan with the city.

Shaffer also ruled the fees the city required Long, 58, to pay to retrieve the truck were too high, violating constitutional protections against excessive fines.
In the past, a "home" has had two elements, a location and a structure/dwelling/shelter of some kind.

While Judge Shaffer did not specifically address location vs structure/dwelling/shelter in her ruling, a precedent has now been set that the location is immaterial without due process (meaning it's pretty much immaterial altogether).

So if I go procure an old Buick, and live in it, because I don't want to pay rent, it's my home.

If I park the Buick in Judge Shaffer's driveway, it's my home, I suppose, and she can't have it towed without due process. If it is towed, the impound fees must be easily affordable.

I suspect this may be overruled if the City of Seattle bothers to appeal further.

I know there will be lots of "feed the poor to the hungry" comments from the usual snarksters...but...an interesting case, from my POV. The legal precedent, if it stands, will extend to other scenarios.
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Old 7 March 2018, 13:15
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It's an interesting issue because LA just did the same thing, just even more drastically than Seattle.

Essentially, you cannot sleep in your vehicle. If you do, you will receive a fine. Their overarching idea is to remove anyone from just parking a vehicle in a neighborhood, like say a nicely appointed van or fifth wheel, instead of paying the absolutely exorbitant rents there.

San Francisco looks to be following in lockstep, as expected, and further ruin any ability for people to live in these liberal enclaves. At some point soon, I hope, people will begin to take their talents elsewhere and we'll have thriving economies in much more affordable places.

Until then...the status quo remains of six-figure salaries that barely get you above the poverty line.
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Old 7 March 2018, 13:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
It's an interesting issue because LA just did the same thing, just even more drastically than Seattle.

Essentially, you cannot sleep in your vehicle. If you do, you will receive a fine. Their overarching idea is to remove anyone from just parking a vehicle in a neighborhood, like say a nicely appointed van or fifth wheel, instead of paying the absolutely exorbitant rents there.

San Francisco looks to be following in lockstep, as expected, and further ruin any ability for people to live in these liberal enclaves. At some point soon, I hope, people will begin to take their talents elsewhere and we'll have thriving economies in much more affordable places.

Until then...the status quo remains of six-figure salaries that barely get you above the poverty line.
LA and San Fran...luxurious lifestyle locations of the ultra-progressive liberals, on the second floor and above. Street level...not so much.
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Old 7 March 2018, 14:46
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Zillions of homeless motorhome folks, all throughout California and other areas. In Anaheim reportedly autos get ticketed for parking long, but not motorhomes. Hmmmm... That's odd.

Direct application to these folks, too, should the case pass and similar challenges pop up in Cali. 9th Circuit will certainly support the RV crowd, despite their dumping black water in-place.
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Old 7 March 2018, 16:22
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I don't know what everyone is talking about... according to google maps, the homeless/tent city areas near Anaheim stadium are gone.

Problem solved
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Old 7 March 2018, 23:21
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Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
At some point soon, I hope, people will begin to take their talents elsewhere and we'll have thriving economies in much more affordable places.
fuck that. they spiked the shit out of the housing market in Washington as they fled. Denver's pricey as all hell, and I'm not sure if they impacted it, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Austin's been ruint by them too.

I'm sure there are other places as well. I'd rather they fix CA than flee it.
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Old 8 March 2018, 10:40
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Originally Posted by KW Driver View Post
fuck that. they spiked the shit out of the housing market in Washington as they fled. Denver's pricey as all hell, and I'm not sure if they impacted it, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Austin's been ruint by them too.

I'm sure there are other places as well. I'd rather they fix CA than flee it.
Agreed. They vote in the socialists then when the inevitable financial and social penalties come home to roost they pack up and move and bring their fucked up socialist bullshit to another place and start doing it all over again. I would much prefer that they stay their asses in CA and reap the benefits of the socialism they created. They are very similar to the immigrants who flee their shithole country, then come here and work hard to turn the US into the same shithole they just fled.
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Old 8 March 2018, 11:40
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Agreed. They vote in the socialists then when the inevitable financial and social penalties come home to roost they pack up and move and bring their fucked up socialist bullshit to another place and start doing it all over again. I would much prefer that they stay their asses in CA and reap the benefits of the socialism they created. They are very similar to the immigrants who flee their shithole country, then come here and work hard to turn the US into the same shithole they just fled.
Agreed.
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Old 8 March 2018, 12:53
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Somehow a thread about a local court ruling in Washington, which is the opposite of what local courts are ruling in California, has become a thread bashing Californians and blaming them for everything that goes wrong everywhere else in the US. Well, I have a news flash for everyone...Californians aren't to blame for all the troubles everywhere else caused by liberal progressive politics. Liberal progressive politics aren't unique to California. CO Gov John Hickenlooper is from PA. WA Gov Jay Inslee is from Seattle. Austin Mayor Steve Adler is from WA DC.

Funny thing is that no one ever blames Californians for the state of things in NY, NJ, CT, IL, etc. Californians are only blamed for bad things in the western 1/3 of the USA.
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Old 8 March 2018, 13:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
Funny thing is that no one ever blames Californians for the state of things in NY, NJ, CT, IL, etc. Californians are only blamed for bad things in the western 1/3 of the USA.
Well, those schmucks from Mass sent IL one of their carpetbagging Kennedy shitheads to run for IL governor, so our anger is directed at the other coast right now. S/F....Ken M
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Old 8 March 2018, 14:37
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Washington always struck me as pretty accommodating to the homeless/alternative living. having only spent time in CA and OR, they struck me so as well. CA has seemed to crack down on their homeless more as of late. so be it, not my state. I like that his vehicle was by default ruled a "structure/dwelling" by this judge. why does it have to be rooted to the ground? he was parked in public space I assume. they've established a 72hr rule for mobile "dwellings". fine by me. he violated that. ok. the impound fines were ruled excessive. that's subjective, but a judge ruled so. so King County has rulings and precedents now. I'm ok with that too. parking a mobile dwelling on private property without authorization is still trespassing to my mind, so the judge's driveway should be safe from the unwashed masses, as it has always been. I'm sure WA has squatters laws too. but he was initially (legally?) parked on what I assume to be a public road/land until he surpassed the 72 hr rule.

I've spent time in my van traveling and will also park on public streets and in parks, truck stops, Walmart, church, museum, library lots. I make it a game to stealth camp, or overnight in such a way as to not have to pay for it. I never got rousted either in Canada, the East coast from Maine to Key West, the Gulf Coast, or parts of the West I've driven. it's my responsibility to not litter, or shit and piss in public, or act in a way that impacts adjacent private property. that's the balance that needs to be struck. private property owners don't get to run off people who park in public parking spaces outside their property simply for parking and dwelling within their vehicle.

so that's my personal bias/opinion on the original topic.

As far as Californian bashing goes, they fled CA to OR, WA, CO, TX, ID, and those so inclined bring their bullshit liberal values to those places I've seen it affected. plussing up the local liberal numbers allowing liberal governmental leaders to gain office and traction and pushing their liberal agendas where they didn't have or didn't have as much traction previously. Washington, and the Seattle-Olympia metro area are rife with Californians who fled in the early '00s. everywhere else outside of that area in WA is pretty staunchly western/conservative in values. especially on the east side of the Cascades. less so in OR on the west side at least.

I didn't see it happen to GA in the 90s, but ATL is plenty fucked up looking in from the outside.

I didn't like much at all about NY when I lived there, but I also didn't vote there. so I did my time. there's very little about New England that impresses me politically or legally. I can't much speak to their flight because I assume they have stayed along the eastern seaboard or maybe the west coast. I didn't see many that stood out in WA from '05-12.

most agree that Chicago is it's own special hell, and it disproportionately negatively affects the rest of IL.

I addressed what I have/had seen. I'll let the east coasters and mid-westerners speak for themselves. whether or not Californians have gone to those locations, I can't say. I don't live there.
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Old 8 March 2018, 15:13
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Well, those schmucks from Mass sent IL one of their carpetbagging Kennedy shitheads to run for IL governor, so our anger is directed at the other coast right now. S/F....Ken M
Save some for our homegrown shitheads.
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Old 8 March 2018, 16:29
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
Well, those schmucks from Mass sent IL one of their carpetbagging Kennedy shitheads to run for IL governor, so our anger is directed at the other coast right now. S/F....Ken M
Hopefully we can send you the rest of them too.
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Old 8 March 2018, 16:44
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Originally Posted by gavin View Post
Somehow a thread about a local court ruling in Washington, which is the opposite of what local courts are ruling in California, has become a thread bashing Californians and blaming them for everything that goes wrong everywhere else in the US.

As the kids say...."My Bad." Sorry for the hijack.
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Old 9 March 2018, 00:28
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This is an excellent post Gavin. I think a terrible precedence has been set however, I can see the socialist libtard argument....the key variable here in both rulings from Seattle and Louisiana is that the dwelling or structure in question with regard to occupying public property.

You cannot park it on the judges driveway because that is private property and therefore would be a violation of the expectation of privacy, trespassing, and yatti yatti. Libtards are essentially suggesting public property is open to occupy by whomever whenever they want. It was the same thing with “occupy” movements across the nation. As long as they were not impeding traffic they could essentially sit or stand or lay or whatever for durations in some cities for months and months and months. Unless a vehicle is parked in a tow away zone, a vehicle can technically be parked in public space as long as it wants to be parked unless somehow otherwise prohibited by law. Clearly in the Seattle ruling, this was idiotic considering there were rules and ordinances against it. Welcome to the new America. Shall we all fasten our seatbelts? I can’t wait to see more crazies filing this ....
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Old 9 March 2018, 00:57
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Originally Posted by Sado_1 View Post
You cannot park it on the judges driveway because that is private property and therefore would be a violation of the expectation of privacy, trespassing, and yatti yatti.
Well, not so fast...the court ruling is about 1) what a "home" is, and 2) due process and excessive fines.

The court ruling protects "homes," regardless of location.

So, I park it on the judge's driveway. She tells me to remove it. I say "no." She can "trespass" me off of her driveway, but now I can't get to my home, and we have what lawyers call a "prescriptive easement" issue. Usually there is a time period required for a prescriptive easement (5 years is standard), but the case at hand may change that. If I spent the night in the car (in her driveway) before she asked me to leave, I may now have "tenant" rights which must be resolved before I can be evicted. Some states do not have a minimum time requirement to establish tenancy, nor do they require the tenancy to be lawful (i.e. squatters have tenancy rights).

Now, the due process and fines problem. Usually, when vehicles are impounded, the tow company gets to charge the RO towing and storage fees, and lien sale the vehicle if the RO doesn't pay in a set period of time.

Not anymore. The judge ruled that the fees may not exceed what the RO can pay. So the fees will have to become a lot less $$$, and now tow companies won't want to tow a car, as they can't recover fees and can't lien sale the car if the RO doesn't pay the fees.

So, most likely, the city will have to pay the tow fees in order for the tow companies to keep working, or the city will have to have a tow fleet of their own, as well as secure storage for towed vehicles. Cities may or may not choose to start spending lots of $$$ on tow operations and secure storage lots.

But, back to my Buick in the judge's driveway. If she wants it towed, she'll have to pay for the tow. The city may pay to keep the roads clear of cars, but not to get cars off of her private property.

There are a whole bunch of downrange effects that could come from this...
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Old 9 March 2018, 07:36
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Old 9 March 2018, 07:38
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Homestead laws are very well developed in the courts, and in some cases they extend to moveable homes. Washington's homestead exemption defines a homestead as "real or personal property that the owner uses as a residence." A car is personal property, ergo, it qualifies under the language of the statute if it is used as a residence. Mobile homes qualify for protection under every homestead law of which I am aware, too (usually by express language). The interesting fact about mobile homes is that they are treated as motor vehicles in many states and the DMV issues titles for them just like cars. So I'm not shocked or outraged by this. The homestead laws contemplate this kind of result.

And you won't get a prescriptive easement by parking your homestead car in the judge's driveway. Easements benefit and burden land only. Easements require the existence of a dominant tenement and a servient tenement recognized as real property. A car, not being land, could not be the dominant tenement benefitted by an easement because it isn't real property. And the easement could not be recorded because no valid legal description of the dominant tenement would exist. Furthermore, occupancy of land without authorization is a trespass, and an action for ejectment lies. A homestead law does not give you a right to trespass; it only prevents the forced sale of your homestead to satisfy a money judgment.

With respect to the fines, I have no sympathy for towing companies. Every single one I have dealt with is crooked. But it appears from the article that the city, not a private company, assessed the impound fees, which does trigger an inquiry into whether a state actor is imposing excessive fines.
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Last edited by Azatty; 9 March 2018 at 07:53.
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Old 9 March 2018, 10:44
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Originally Posted by Azatty View Post
With respect to the fines, I have no sympathy for towing companies. Every single one I have dealt with is crooked. But it appears from the article that the city, not a private company, assessed the impound fees, which does trigger an inquiry into whether a state actor is imposing excessive fines.
I share your disdain for tow outfits.

As far as who assesses the fees, that often varies by circumstance. If the tow company removes a vehicle from private property at the property owner's request, the fees are usually established and collected by the tow company (the amount of the fees is sometimes limited by ordinance or law).

If the tow company is removing a vehicle from public property, the fees for the tow are generally payable to the government entity, while the impound/storage fees are still payable to the tow company.

In either case, there is a state actor involved to some degree. The key question, in this case, is what is excessive? Do the fees have to be set so that anyone can pay them easily, regardless of income (or lack of income)?

8654M...I don't think I would want to be a lawyer, but I enjoy the analysis aspect of this sort of thing...looking at a ruling or law, and thinking about the potential consequences.
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Old 9 March 2018, 15:25
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Municipalities often charge an "admin fee" which is basically bond on the vehicle, since many criminals are illegals and/or have multiple alias and never show up to court. But they do want their car back. So the city charges them 250-500 to get their car back, on top of whatever the tow fee is. This goes to the city, not the tow company.

The USSC already ruled on that, it was a case involving Waukegan IL IIRC. Which is heavily minority and also site of three Superfund sites and is stereotypical rustbelt USA. S/F....Ken M
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