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Old 31 August 2020, 07:18
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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SEAL Probation PQS/JQRs

Asking a favor. If folks know the following could they please DM me?

Actual day and/or year that probation and boards were ended?
(I get mixed dates)

Reasoning behind ending probation and boards?
(I get mixed reasons, but would like the official one)

Arguments against having probation and oral boards back in order to get your NECx?
(Doing this as a kind of murder board/red team)

Reasoning behind these questions are that I am going to try to ask for probation to be re-instituted again. Basic idea is you check into the team, you have until the end of ULT to get your JQRs signed off and then at some point in TGIT you take your oral boards. One board will be for knowledge, one for scenarios/ethics. If you do not want to put that on the thread, please just DM me. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!
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Old 3 September 2020, 03:14
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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No one has any input or opinions on this?
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Old 3 September 2020, 04:36
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Frog Frog is offline
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I think you are wasting your time. This is ancient history. If you are looking for background and official rational of the changes made, check with WARCOM. Are you still in the Reserves? If so check with your CMC.
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Old 5 September 2020, 12:20
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by Frog View Post
I think you are wasting your time. This is ancient history. If you are looking for background and official rational of the changes made, check with WARCOM. Are you still in the Reserves? If so check with your CMC.
It is not a done deal, Green was already looking at it and it has a lot of support of from the CMC's. I have been back on AD for over a decade now, I am pretty tied into what is going on. I get that you think it is a waste of time, but I do think it will make a difference and the rational for letting it go was pretty weak. The main reason it was not reinstated was due to fear of losing people as they were trying to expand by 40% across SOF. I get that some think it is a bit like sisyphus, but I think it will be better for the community in the long run if it comes back into play. Have to at least try.
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Old 12 September 2020, 01:14
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I seriously miss the whole probation period. We've completely lost our humility in the Teams, and it shows in all the news reports, self-promoting books, and discipline cases involving remarkably few--but amplified out of proportion. Our guys are as good or better than we ever were, but I'd love to see the spotlight shift somewhere else.
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Old 20 September 2020, 09:10
Terminator2 Terminator2 is offline
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Originally Posted by trident86 View Post
I seriously miss the whole probation period. We've completely lost our humility in the Teams, and it shows in all the news reports, self-promoting books, and discipline cases involving remarkably few--but amplified out of proportion. Our guys are as good or better than we ever were, but I'd love to see the spotlight shift somewhere else.
Did SQT exist in the days in the days when you guys had the probationary period, or did SQT replace that part of the pipeline? How did the probationary period contribute to the overall humility of the Teams?
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Old 20 September 2020, 21:05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trident86 View Post
I seriously miss the whole probation period. We've completely lost our humility in the Teams, and it shows in all the news reports, self-promoting books, and discipline cases involving remarkably few--but amplified out of proportion. Our guys are as good or better than we ever were, but I'd love to see the spotlight shift somewhere else.
Excellent post.
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Old 21 September 2020, 20:47
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Excellent post.
Agreed.
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  #9  
Old 6 October 2020, 02:59
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trident86 View Post
I seriously miss the whole probation period. We've completely lost our humility in the Teams, and it shows in all the news reports, self-promoting books, and discipline cases involving remarkably few--but amplified out of proportion. Our guys are as good or better than we ever were, but I'd love to see the spotlight shift somewhere else.
I truly believe that it would go a long way in helping guys take ownership of the Trident again. Right now they are given once they are done with SQT and I don't think it has as much value then. In addition, I really think it gives the teams a chance to see how the guys are and if they gel with the culture and what their work ethic is still like. It only catches that 1-2% of guys who should not be in the teams, but that 1-2% can have a very negative impact in my view. I also think it will help make a better informed new guy if they are forced to get signed off on all of our basic tasks and then get tested on them. Just my take, but I am writing a position paper on it and hoping it gets some traction.
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Old 6 October 2020, 03:08
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by Terminator2 View Post
Did SQT exist in the days in the days when you guys had the probationary period, or did SQT replace that part of the pipeline? How did the probationary period contribute to the overall humility of the Teams?
We had SQT, you had to complete it prior to being eligible to take the oral boards for your Trident. The issue was that the teams were inconsistent when giving boards out because SQT was only held twice a year on each coast and if you arrived at your team at the wrong point it could add another 6 months onto your probation time. So, an Admiral threw the baby out with the bath water instead of just fixing the issue. SQT is far more professionally run now and far more streamlined, but this in turn makes it even easier to justify bringing back probation in my view.

Probation gives you time to feel a guy out, they are not done training yet this way and if they are screw ups we can see that. It also makes you own the Trident, now it is just given to them at the end of SQT. It also helps in terms of better well rounded knowledge, critical thinking and cohesion in my view. It would take a while to build some of the traditions back up, but worth it for the community in the long run.

As for humility, we have guys who come to the team and they are officially SEALs. We have folks buck against the system right now to not even have to do many of the "games" played with the new guys because they know they have the Trident. We have had officers refuse to be told what to do by seasoned operators because they are new guys and complain directly to the CO for being told to be involved in the new guy games. Hardly a sing of humility. In addition it would help us weed out that small percentage of guys who should not be there in the first place, who may have slipped through training or are just wanting to rest on their laurels.

Anyone who says that it is easy to remove a trident is not being honest. One, the boards are often discouraged by senior leaders and multiple chances are given to guys who have paperwork stacked a mile high on them. Even if the CO removes their trident, they are at the team until Millington actually has them switch rates or separates them from the Navy. That can at times take up to a year and they are still, on the books at least, a SEAL. That all matters, people see it.

Last edited by Medic5392; 6 October 2020 at 03:18.
  #11  
Old 6 October 2020, 14:22
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Well I'm a PQS/probation product pre-SQT. In UDT 11, ST-5 and ST-3 no one was shit canned unless they had a couple of major safety violations (failure to pull your main in MFF, AD inside the compound or drugs comes to mind. One or two got extended on probation for another 6 months, but none just failed PQS or the board without 2nd or 3rd chances.



It IS easy to pull a Trident, I had to do it. No board required, just a CO's signature. It's an Admin action and send them to the Fleet. A phone call to Millington and the guy had orders to an Oiler in 3 days. Stop all special pays, start sea pay time.


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