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  #21  
Old 3 December 2009, 18:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
I think someone's home is something to be quite worried about.

HAs, like them or not, exist because people realized that it sucks ass to drop a shitload of money down for your dream, only to have your neighbor park his fridge on the lawn, throw up a ratty chainlink fence, and paint his house the fuchsia color he has always dreamed of. Some HAs have become fucking stupid -- I agree. Others are quite reasonable and serve their purpose.

I love when people "demand" to be allowed to do something in the name of patriotism. What a great concept. If you contest them, you are not a patriot. You become a scumsucker that hates the US.

What a crock....
+1

I have a home owners association and I like it. Out of over 300 homes, I'm one of only about a dozen people who actually show up at the meetings. I go because I want to ensure that small minded neighborhood Nazis don't get control of it. My HOA has tried to be lenient on some things, but as soon as you allow one person to do their own thing with a flagpole, another thinks that justifies building a brick religious monument in their front yard. Literally, and it was a fricking shrine.

When I look at some of the neighboring subdivisions, I can see that they look like crap due to a weak HOA, or lack of rules. That impacts their appeal, and value. On the other hand, you can get an out of control HOA and I see the results of that as well. In this case, I don't think they were unreasonable. While they may not have specified flag poles, I'm sure their subdivision rules had a generic statement just like mine does and he decided it was a loop hole.

From what I read of the article, he can display the flag just like I can any day of the week. In my case it has to be on a bracket attached to my house. From the wording of the article I suspect that he has the same situation. Is that less 'American' or less 'Patriotic'? I don't think so.

I resent people making personal issues 'Patriotic' issues to win their way.
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  #22  
Old 3 December 2009, 22:14
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Is he allowed to fly the flag in some other fashion?

Flagpoles aren't the only way US flags are authorized to be displayed.

My mom just moved to a retirment village, a condo as opposed to one of the stand alone villas the also have. This is the first time in her adult life that she's lived at a place where she has to abide by their rules.

They don't seem that restrictive, but when I mentioned that when it came time to wash her screens I thought I'd just bring over a power washer and do it there, she told me that's something that probably couldn't be done. So, we'll have to bring the screens over to somebody's house to do them, or else pay the HA $5 a shot to wash them.

The hell with that. Paying to have them washed, that is.
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Last edited by Spinner; 3 December 2009 at 22:18.
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  #23  
Old 3 December 2009, 22:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longrifle View Post

If burning the flag disrespectfully is considered "freedom of speech," why isn't flying the flag respectfully considered the same and protected as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker19D30 View Post
This is what it comes down to for me. There would seem to be a first amendment issue here.
I'm sure they wouldn't let him burn one in his yard either.

I do kinda like the idea of a law protecting a persons right to display the US flag. However, I don't enjoy new laws telling us what we can or can not do on private property. Oh what the hell, he has a MOH. Let him do whatever he wants!
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  #24  
Old 3 December 2009, 22:36
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I can't find it, or maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but there was a video that came out a few years ago showing two older Vets in what looks like a condo complex, competing with each other to see who can raise the flag first every morning.

I thought Charles Durning played one of them, can't be sure.
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  #25  
Old 3 December 2009, 22:36
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I'm on our HOA board and I completely agree with SOTB and P38. We are not HOA Nazi's but it does serve the neighborhood well. It's important to have something established. I don't want the value of my house going down because someone setup an auto repair shop out of their garage or they have 8 cars for a family of 4 parking in the yard, on the street etc.
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  #26  
Old 3 December 2009, 23:10
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I've read with interest a few threads where folk in the US have had flag issues. They have cropped up here in Australia as well, but it's usually the local council and in one memorable episode a few years ago, the complaints were fueled by immigrants feeling offended by the ANF (Australian National Flag) being flown in "their" street.

However, if a VC recipient wanted to fly a flag, I don't think any local authority would have the guts to protest. After all, Her Majesty's own Palace Guard is bound to obey the orders of a VC survivor regardless of the worn rank....what's a local council going to do?

Whilst I disagree with people using "patriotism" as a vehicle to get their own way, I do personally feel that if you survived a CMOH or a VC award, then you've earnt a little leeway.

Not that my opinion in this matter is worth diddly.
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  #27  
Old 3 December 2009, 23:32
Section8 Section8 is offline
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So As I understand the general consensus here is that we should all bow down to a HOA because they are right and we are sheople. They are above the federal and state statues. Interesting!!!
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  #28  
Old 3 December 2009, 23:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Section8
....and we are sheople....
Aww, look -- someone who meets the definition of melodramatic....
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  #29  
Old 3 December 2009, 23:45
Section8 Section8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
Aww, look -- someone who meets the definition of melodramatic....
Patriotism is what this country is founded on!!!

"Stand for something or fall for everything" ............... your call!
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  #30  
Old 3 December 2009, 23:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Section8 View Post
Patriotism is what this country is founded on!!!

"Stand for something or fall for everything" ............... your call!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
Aww, look -- someone who meets the definition of melodramatic....
...
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  #31  
Old 3 December 2009, 23:57
tip001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longrifle View Post
Link

Spin it any way you want, to me it's not about a flagpole. It's about the flag.
Absolutely. I read about this last night and think it's bullshit. I can't imagine his flag pole being that big of a distraction.
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  #32  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:07
Section8 Section8 is offline
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To answer the original posters question: No we do not need another law. We just need the current one removed!
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  #33  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husker19D30 View Post
This is what it comes down to for me. There would seem to be a first amendment issue here.
The first amendment states that the govt shall pass no law prohibiting or infringing upon free speech. This is not what is happening here, and is therefore not a first amendment issue.

This gentleman entered into a legally binding civil contract when he purchsed his home and signed on the dotted line with the HOA. It was a choice that he made. If the contract said "no flag poles," then he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. It's that simple.

I don't like HOAs, which is why I didn't buy a home in a neighborhood that had one.
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Last edited by mdb23; 4 December 2009 at 00:19.
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  #34  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tip001 View Post
Absolutely. I read about this last night and think it's bullshit. I can't imagine his flag pole being that big of a distraction.
Right, but if they make an exception in his case, then they are going to have a hard time enforcing the stipulation in other cases.....a legal landmine to say the least. I think the following quote sums it up quite well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P38 View Post
My HOA has tried to be lenient on some things, but as soon as you allow one person to do their own thing with a flagpole, another thinks that justifies building a brick religious monument in their front yard. Literally, and it was a fricking shrine.
And finally, +10000 on the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by P38 View Post
I resent people making personal issues 'Patriotic' issues to win their way.
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Last edited by mdb23; 4 December 2009 at 00:19.
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  #35  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:21
Section8 Section8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb23 View Post
The first amendment states that the govt shall pass no law prohibiting free speech. This is not what is happening here, and is therefore not a first amendment issue.

This gentleman entered into a legally binding civil contract when he purchsed his home and signed on the dotted line with the HOA. It was a choice that he made. If the contract said "no flag poles," then he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on. It's that simple.

I don't like HOAs, which is why I didn't buy a home in a neighborhood that had one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb23 View Post
Right, but if they make an exception in his case, then they are going to have a hard time enforcing the stipulation in other cases.....a legal landmine to say the least.
Fair enough.


So..........how do display a flag without a flag pole?

Lets also keep in mind this:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf

Last paragraph...

Quote:
Restrictions on Display of the Flag by
Real Estate Associations
The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 200556 prohibits a
condominium, cooperative, or real estate management association from adopting or
enforcing any policy or agreement that would restrict or prevent a member of the
association from displaying the flag in accordance with the Federal Flag Code on
residential property to which the member has a separate ownership interest.
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  #36  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:23
tip001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdb23 View Post
Right, but if they make an exception in his case, then they are going to have a hard time enforcing the stipulation in other cases.....a legal landmine to say the least. I think the following quote sums it up quite well.:
That's a good point. I just feel bad because he is a 90 y/o MOH recipient who deserves to display the flag. But you're right.
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  #37  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Section8 View Post
Lets also keep in mind this:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf

Last paragraph...

Quote:
Restrictions on Display of the Flag by
Real Estate Associations
The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 200556 prohibits a
condominium, cooperative, or real estate management association from adopting or
enforcing any policy or agreement that would restrict or prevent a member of the
association from displaying the flag in accordance with the Federal Flag Code on
residential property to which the member has a separate ownership interest.
They aren't prohibiting him from displaying the flag, merely stating that he cannot have a flagpole in his yard. There are other ways to display the flag.
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  #38  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:52
Decon Decon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Section8 View Post
Fair enough.


So..........how do display a flag without a flag pole?

Lets also keep in mind this:
http://www.senate.gov/reference/reso...df/RL30243.pdf

Last paragraph...

Quote:
Restrictions on Display of the Flag by
Real Estate Associations
The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 200556 prohibits a
condominium, cooperative, or real estate management association from adopting or
enforcing any policy or agreement that would restrict or prevent a member of the
association from displaying the flag in accordance with the Federal Flag Code on
residential property to which the member has a separate ownership interest.
Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005:
SEC. 4. LIMITATIONS.


Nothing in this Act shall be considered to permit any display or use that is inconsistent with--


(1) any provision of chapter 1 of title 4, United States Code, or any rule or custom pertaining to the proper display or use of the flag of the United States (as established pursuant to such chapter or any otherwise applicable provision of law); or


(2) any reasonable restriction pertaining to the time, place, or manner of displaying the flag of the United States necessary to protect a substantial interest of the condominium association, cooperative association, or residential real estate management association.
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  #39  
Old 4 December 2009, 00:57
Greenhat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longrifle View Post
If burning the flag disrespectfully is considered "freedom of speech," why isn't flying the flag respectfully considered the same and protected as well?
There is an argument for the lawyer if I ever saw one.

"Your honor, I understand the purpose of the HOA and am sure they serve a wonderful purpose. However, we are talking about restricting the first amendment rights of a man who risked his life for our nation."
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  #40  
Old 4 December 2009, 01:18
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mdb23 mdb23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat View Post
There is an argument for the lawyer if I ever saw one.

"Your honor, I understand the purpose of the HOA and am sure they serve a wonderful purpose. However, we are talking about restricting the first amendment rights of a man who risked his life for our nation."
We are still confusing issues here. The indivudual entered into a private agreeement with the HOA that allows the HOA to pursue legal action against him if he violates the codes and stupulations that he agreed to.

I have a legal right to burn a flag.....which means that the govt cannot come after me (legally) if I do so. However, if I have signed a contract with a HOA stating that I will not burn anything on my property, and then burn a flag in my front yard, the HOA can still take legal action for violation of the agreement. That's not a first amendment violation.

It's no different than accepting a private sector job where there are codes of conduct that I must stipulate to in order to get hired....I may have freedom of speech, but if I choose to hand out pro life literature to every customer that comes through my KMart checkout lane, my employer can still fire can fire me...... Well, I have a right to burn a flag.....but if I enter into a binding agreement that says I won't burn anything on my property, then I can still get sued by the HOA....

In both cases, the govt isn;t taking any action against me...a private entity is based upon authority that I gave them by entering into a binding agreement...

This may suck, but it isn;t a violation of freedom of speech.
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Last edited by mdb23; 4 December 2009 at 01:21.
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