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Old 1 February 2017, 09:34
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US POWs from WW2 taken to USSR

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD8_do85Xto

Had an educational experience last night, watching this video on American POWs who were "liberated" from German POW camps in Poland and other areas after the camps were liberated by the USSR... Instead of being released back to us, they were taken to forced labor camps with Nazi prisoners. Supposedly our allies, this even lead to US vrs Soviet air battles with planes shot down on both sides. A US General had B17s fly to one of these camps and take the US soldiers being held by Soviets back.
The number of WW2 era American POWs held in Soviet labor camps was around 25 THOUSAND. How in the hell could our government leave these soldiers to rot in Soviet labor camps? Not to mention the POWs from Korea, and Vietnam...
Then I watched the video on Japanese unit 731...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdM3_kzhscM
We agreed not to prosecute these criminals in exchange for their research in human chemical weapons experiments, where US POWS were used as human guinea pigs in some of these experiments... Well, is it me, or should these people have been executed regardless of the information they had?
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Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
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Old 1 February 2017, 10:26
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This is how politics differ from life. Politicians can change the rules from their version of "Honor". It lets you rationalize anything.
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Old 1 February 2017, 10:59
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Well known that was done
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Old 1 February 2017, 15:20
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As I understand it, Ike was well aware of this, as was Truman.

A fair number of soldiers during the Korean War, although definitely not as many as in WWII, wound up in Russia also.
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Old 1 February 2017, 15:23
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I've heard most of this story. Still can't believe it. Can't believe our own people would sell us down the river - well not can't - don't want too.

Listening to John McCain, himself a pow, shit all over that guy for saying we left some behind particularly hurt.

I'm glad to hear this new story though about generals that kept the faith and went to rescue or guys from the Soviets. I hadn't heard that one before. I don't understand why that didn't happen more often.

*Sigh*

Just make me horribly sad.
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Old 1 February 2017, 19:00
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There is a book titled Soldiers of Misfortune.
I read it many years ago I don't remember the author though.
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Old 1 February 2017, 20:35
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Originally Posted by GPC View Post
There is a book titled Soldiers of Misfortune.
James Sanders
Hardcover: 352 pages
Publisher: Natl Pr Books; First edition (September 1992)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0915765837
ISBN-13: 978-0915765836

https://www.amazon.com/Soldiers-Misfortune-Washingtons-Betrayal-American/dp/0915765837
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Old 1 February 2017, 22:09
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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The allegation about the Soviets 'keeping' U.S. service personnel after World War II has been shown to be not true and put to bed.

Timothy K. Nenninger, the chief of Modern Military Records at the National Archives, explained both the allegations (including Soldiers of Misfortune) and the extensive U.S. archival material from the wartime period that disproves the allegations in his article "United States Prisoners of War and the Red Army, 1944-45: Myths and Realities," Journal of Military History 66 (July 2002): 761-82. In brief, some attempted to make 'missing' = 'in Soviet hands,' and some offered specific names but these names could be tracked to death files in the Army's records. We do know that some 28,000 American prisoners of war were in parts of East and Central Europe overrun by the Soviet Union's armies.

According to the testimony of former Soviet General Volkogonov, the majority of the American citizens who passed through the former Soviet Union (not just through Soviet hands) during the war were former POWs picked up by the Red Army. This numbered 22,454. They were returned to the U.S. There were also 730 U.S. pilots/aircrew interned (and transported through to Iran, in most instances). They too returned to the U.S. There were several dozen espionage cases. The Russians have identified the burial sites of "virtually all" U.S. citizens who died in the Soviet Union in World War II.

The executive summary of the report is here:
https://fas.org/irp/congress/1993_rpt/pow-exec.html

and the Library of Congress has the related reports:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/pow/senate...igation_S.html

On Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War shootdowns, a different post is warranted.
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Old 2 February 2017, 14:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
The allegation about the Soviets 'keeping' U.S. service personnel after World War II has been shown to be not true and put to bed.

Timothy K. Nenninger, the chief of Modern Military Records at the National Archives, explained both the allegations (including Soldiers of Misfortune) and the extensive U.S. archival material from the wartime period that disproves the allegations in his article "United States Prisoners of War and the Red Army, 1944-45: Myths and Realities," Journal of Military History 66 (July 2002): 761-82. In brief, some attempted to make 'missing' = 'in Soviet hands,' and some offered specific names but these names could be tracked to death files in the Army's records. We do know that some 28,000 American prisoners of war were in parts of East and Central Europe overrun by the Soviet Union's armies.

According to the testimony of former Soviet General Volkogonov, the majority of the American citizens who passed through the former Soviet Union (not just through Soviet hands) during the war were former POWs picked up by the Red Army. This numbered 22,454. They were returned to the U.S. There were also 730 U.S. pilots/aircrew interned (and transported through to Iran, in most instances). They too returned to the U.S. There were several dozen espionage cases. The Russians have identified the burial sites of "virtually all" U.S. citizens who died in the Soviet Union in World War II.

The executive summary of the report is here:
https://fas.org/irp/congress/1993_rpt/pow-exec.html

and the Library of Congress has the related reports:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/pow/senate...igation_S.html
Thanks for that.

Quote:

On Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War shootdowns, a different post is warranted.
Would be very interested in seeing something on those.
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Old 3 February 2017, 16:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
The allegation about the Soviets 'keeping' U.S. service personnel after World War II has been shown to be not true and put to bed.

Timothy K. Nenninger, the chief of Modern Military Records at the National Archives, explained both the allegations (including Soldiers of Misfortune) and the extensive U.S. archival material from the wartime period that disproves the allegations in his article "United States Prisoners of War and the Red Army, 1944-45: Myths and Realities," Journal of Military History 66 (July 2002): 761-82. In brief, some attempted to make 'missing' = 'in Soviet hands,' and some offered specific names but these names could be tracked to death files in the Army's records. We do know that some 28,000 American prisoners of war were in parts of East and Central Europe overrun by the Soviet Union's armies.

According to the testimony of former Soviet General Volkogonov, the majority of the American citizens who passed through the former Soviet Union (not just through Soviet hands) during the war were former POWs picked up by the Red Army. This numbered 22,454. They were returned to the U.S. There were also 730 U.S. pilots/aircrew interned (and transported through to Iran, in most instances). They too returned to the U.S. There were several dozen espionage cases. The Russians have identified the burial sites of "virtually all" U.S. citizens who died in the Soviet Union in World War II.

The executive summary of the report is here:
https://fas.org/irp/congress/1993_rpt/pow-exec.html

and the Library of Congress has the related reports:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/pow/senate...igation_S.html

On Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War shootdowns, a different post is warranted.
My grandfather was one of the 22k+ that were liberated by the Russians in Poland. At his camp/prison, when the Russians were closing in many Germans took American prisoners with them as they fled to be used as shields or bargaining chips.

I cannot speak to the veracity of Americans ending up in the USSR. I just know my grandfather was a POW for quite a while under miserable conditions, he was liberated by Russians and he came home to father my uncle, my mother and their sister.

Regarding his particular camp, I think the Soviets had their hands full with just taking care of their own that were there. They were generally in worse shape than the Americans and Brits held there, at least that was the version he had passed on to us.
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Old 13 February 2017, 12:13
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We Can Keep You Forever - A 1987 documentary about US Servicemen still missing in action after The Vietnam War :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYhfjTOj9s8
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Old 13 February 2017, 18:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
The allegation about the Soviets 'keeping' U.S. service personnel after World War II has been shown to be not true and put to bed.

Timothy K. Nenninger, the chief of Modern Military Records at the National Archives, explained both the allegations (including Soldiers of Misfortune) and the extensive U.S. archival material from the wartime period that disproves the allegations in his article "United States Prisoners of War and the Red Army, 1944-45: Myths and Realities," Journal of Military History 66 (July 2002): 761-82. In brief, some attempted to make 'missing' = 'in Soviet hands,' and some offered specific names but these names could be tracked to death files in the Army's records. We do know that some 28,000 American prisoners of war were in parts of East and Central Europe overrun by the Soviet Union's armies.

According to the testimony of former Soviet General Volkogonov, the majority of the American citizens who passed through the former Soviet Union (not just through Soviet hands) during the war were former POWs picked up by the Red Army. This numbered 22,454. They were returned to the U.S. There were also 730 U.S. pilots/aircrew interned (and transported through to Iran, in most instances). They too returned to the U.S. There were several dozen espionage cases. The Russians have identified the burial sites of "virtually all" U.S. citizens who died in the Soviet Union in World War II.

The executive summary of the report is here:
https://fas.org/irp/congress/1993_rpt/pow-exec.html

and the Library of Congress has the related reports:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/pow/senate...igation_S.html

On Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War shootdowns, a different post is warranted.
The numbers tossed about for WWII, 22,000, certainly seem high. But does that mean that absolutely no American servicemen didn't end up being spirited back to the Soviet Union, for whatever reason?
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Old 13 February 2017, 20:08
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So was it fear of causing an incident with the Soviets that politically 'justified' this?
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Old 14 February 2017, 09:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armitage12 View Post
The allegation about the Soviets 'keeping' U.S. service personnel after World War II has been shown to be not true and put to bed.

Timothy K. Nenninger, the chief of Modern Military Records at the National Archives, explained both the allegations (including Soldiers of Misfortune) and the extensive U.S. archival material from the wartime period that disproves the allegations in his article "United States Prisoners of War and the Red Army, 1944-45: Myths and Realities," Journal of Military History 66 (July 2002): 761-82. In brief, some attempted to make 'missing' = 'in Soviet hands,' and some offered specific names but these names could be tracked to death files in the Army's records. We do know that some 28,000 American prisoners of war were in parts of East and Central Europe overrun by the Soviet Union's armies.

According to the testimony of former Soviet General Volkogonov, the majority of the American citizens who passed through the former Soviet Union (not just through Soviet hands) during the war were former POWs picked up by the Red Army. This numbered 22,454. They were returned to the U.S. There were also 730 U.S. pilots/aircrew interned (and transported through to Iran, in most instances). They too returned to the U.S. There were several dozen espionage cases. The Russians have identified the burial sites of "virtually all" U.S. citizens who died in the Soviet Union in World War II.

The executive summary of the report is here:
https://fas.org/irp/congress/1993_rpt/pow-exec.html

and the Library of Congress has the related reports:

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/pow/senate...igation_S.html

On Korea, Vietnam and the Cold War shootdowns, a different post is warranted.
The reports you quoted seem to reference Vietnam, Korea, and not much of WW2, plus, they were issued by the same government that told relatives of some of those men it would be better if they considered their missing dead. So, to rely on the sources of information that the "conclusion" is based on is really suspect in my book. A former soviet general? Chief of records at the national archives? Does he receive a .gov paycheck too?

Not for anything, but this nation has a very poor history when it comes to accounting for its missing and POWs and the way it treats the families of those POWs.
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Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
"The Reaper"
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Old 14 February 2017, 14:04
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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Old 14 February 2017, 14:13
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
The numbers tossed about for WWII, 22,000, certainly seem high. But does that mean that absolutely no American servicemen didn't end up being spirited back to the Soviet Union, for whatever reason?
Naval History (USNI) magazine had a recent set of articles about the U.S. Navy and Army Air Corps personnel who ended up in Siberia (around Vladivostok/Kamchatka peninsula) when their aircraft had mechanical difficulties or were shot down. The Soviets were very, very concerned about keeping secret the presence of ANY U.S. service personnel there, and were anxious to get them OUT as secretly as possible (emphasis on the secretly) through Iran so that the Japanese would have zero pretext for undoing the neutrality along the Japanese-Soviet border in Manchuria where there had earlier been fighting. The Soviets couldn't spare the personnel to defend that border adequately.
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Old 11 March 2017, 00:07
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I went to lots of the VN Vet related activities in the 80s and 90s.
Reunions, dedications, etc.
This number of Americans got tossed around a lot.
They used meticulous German records and post war trade deals gone bad as justification.
I know a lot of obfuscaton, interference and chicanery are involved in the general MIA POW issue.
McCain's involvement in closing VN records is interesting.
Another name I won't mention was dragged about as being a govt rep and a big player in closing info on VN guys.
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Old 13 March 2017, 21:54
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Another name I won't mention was dragged about as being a govt rep and a big player in closing info on VN guys.
Henry Kissinger?
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