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  #81  
Old 4 January 2009, 18:29
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Originally Posted by okami1 View Post
GH, did you read that article I posted a couple pages back? I know it was cursory, but what did you think about the author's assertion that the ideology is spreading even while the people who put it into practice are being jailed or killed? Since you're in that part of the world and spend time in Indonesia, I would like to hear your opinion.
Yeah, I read it. And I think the guy is full of shit.
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  #82  
Old 4 January 2009, 18:38
okami1 okami1 is offline
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Yeah, I read it. And I think the guy is full of shit.

Interesting.

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A report by the International Crisis Group earlier this year suggests that the rise of radical publishers could indicate that Jemaah Islamiyah is beginning to wage jihad through the printed page rather than violent acts.

"Some publishers may be playing a more positive than negative role, directing members into above-ground activities and enabling them to promote a jihadi message without engaging in violence," the report says.
This stood out to me as being one of the more stupid things said in the article. Jihadi message without engaging in violence?
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  #83  
Old 4 January 2009, 18:42
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This stood out to me as being one of the more stupid things said in the article. Jihadi message without engaging in violence?
What is stupid about that?

A number of groups essentially provide 'sensitization' to populations that might be suitable jihadists. Do you not understand the role of propaganda and information operations carried out by terrorist and insurget groups?
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  #84  
Old 4 January 2009, 18:48
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"Aha!" moment.

I understand better now, thanks. I think what I thought sounded off about that quote was that it made it sound like the recipients of the jihadi message would be satisfied with the "above-ground" activities and not follow the path to violence. That doesn't seem likely. Am I wrong?
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  #85  
Old 4 January 2009, 18:55
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" I think what I thought sounded off about that quote was that it made it sound like the recipients of the jihadi message would be satisfied with the "above-ground" activities and not follow the path to violence. That doesn't seem likely. Am I wrong?
Its just like any other message. Some hear it and respond, others hear it and say, "that is nuts" and still others hear it and say, "meh".

Recommended reading on the subject: Globalized Islam by Oliver Roy, The War For Muslim Minds by Gilles Kepel, Understanding Terror Networks by Marc Sageman

[/end hijack]
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  #86  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:01
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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The quote by Benjamin Franklin that Jimbo posted doesn't sound like ambiguous language at all, and the sentiment that it expresses is most certainly not anachronistic.
While I agree with that (Franklin) statement on some level, I also feel that we already give up freedoms in order for security. Just as total freedom is anarchy, the antithesis of that would be total subjugation. While neither apply in this country, a medium is maintained. It is required that a functioning society gives up freedoms so that law and order can be maintained. The question is obviously how much freedom should be given and how many restrictions should be imposed? That is a subjective matter that I think each person should make for themselves, however it is the government that makes that decision for us (influenced by our representative democracy, as we do not have a direct democracy)

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The Constitution is a dynamic and evolving document that will be continually interpreted as our society evolves. I would argue that the language of the Constitution is kept purposefully vague in some places to allow us the latitude we feel appropriate in interpreting it. Think of the 2nd Amendment.
This a reason I feel that the first amendment should be reviewed for the dangers of the Islamic fundamentalism. Not to get rid of the first amendment, but to allow for laws that prohibit the kind of environments that foster Islamic fundamentalist behavior. As much as certain 'liberals' try to make the case that the second amendment is an "antiquated" amendment and needs to be redesigned in order to comply with more modern circumstances (of which I vehemently disagree with), the same could be said for the first amendment.....ESPECIALLY for matter such as this (HAMAS supporters on the video). Actively supporting the enemy of your country (either by speech, or by fighting beside them) should NOT be tolerated on any level. I believe that is called sedition.


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What happened to Fish78?
??
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  #87  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:02
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"Aha!" moment.

I understand better now, thanks. I think what I thought sounded off about that quote was that it made it sound like the recipients of the jihadi message would be satisfied with the "above-ground" activities and not follow the path to violence. That doesn't seem likely. Am I wrong?
I think you might want to go do some research on what jihad actually is and means in its RELIGIOUS context instead of what the media and pop culture construes it as
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  #88  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:04
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DirtyDevilDog,
This thread is drifting WAAAAAAAAY off course. If you want to start a new thread about the Constitution and our Founding Fathers, please feel free to do so in the Lounge, as the subject has very little to do with Terrorism or Asymmetric Warfare.

Thanks.
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  #89  
Old 4 January 2009, 19:05
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While I agree with that (Franklin) statement on some level, I also feel that we already give up freedoms in order for security. Just as total freedom is anarchy, the antithesis of that would be total subjugation. While neither apply in this country, a medium is maintained. It is required that a functioning society gives up freedoms so that law and order can be maintained. The question is obviously how much freedom should be given and how many restrictions should be imposed? That is a subjective matter that I think each person should make for themselves, however it is the government that makes that decision for us (influenced by our representative democracy, as we do not have a direct democracy)
You have a twisted (and wrong) perception about the role of government and the relationship between the people and the government (especially when it comes to this country). While your statement makes logical sense (in the if A=B and B=C then A=C sense), it does NOT make sense in the context of this country's government and the people, or even how most first world governments operate.
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  #90  
Old 5 January 2009, 12:31
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Nice try but he wasn't attacking you, he was giving you a backhanded compliment while at the same time questioning your motives.

That "attack the person" counter works well when the discussion centers around political ideology but not as well in a thread where facts need to be used.

You comments, IMO, appear fairly simplistic and niave, so I can see how someone would find it difficult to take them seriously.

At some point people who have much more experience than you get frustrated trying to counter points that aren't on the same level as others points of disagreement or agreement are, since it is mentally tiring to be drug down to the level it requires for a response.

That's not attacking you either, it's just commentary on how your posts read and the points that are contained within them.
Hmm. Well, I definitely didn't see the backhanded compliment, but hey, I'm not familiar with all the personalities around here. It just seems to me like certain people are trying to "win" discussions as they would a military engagement, brute force style.

Anyway, about simplicity, I figured it would be best to keep things simple. Guys here are smart, they can read between the lines. Nobody wants to read a big long complicated argument.

You are right about experience, and I'd be the first to admit this. I'm not a BTDT yet, but I do have a lot of experience with Islam and the Middle East as a civilian. I haven't been in battle in Iraq, but I have attended schools in Yemen. I've walked through their gun markets where gand grenades were selling for $20/pop and RPG rockets going for around $90. I've attended prayer sessions at mosques in Jordan. I've been locked in jail cells in Baalbeck, Lebanon, right across the street from a mosque with Hezbollah flags flying all over it. I've seen a Nazi flag hang from a mosque in Qatar. From the West Bank to Syria to the UAE, I've been pretty much everywhere in that part of the world. I've also seen for myself the Muslim areas in Paris, UK, and other parts of Europe. Everything Bruce Bawer says in "While Europe Slept" is spot on the truth. I've read the Quran in Arabic, or at least most of it. I've studied the Hadiths and history of Islam. I've seen all the different cultures that part of the world has to offer. And while differences do of course exist, to a very large extent all the cultures are largely the same. And they are the same because of one thing - ISLAM.

I don't claim to be some kind of Islamic scholar, but I've had more than enough experience with Islam and all the various cultures produced by it to say a few things. Islam IS as much about politics as it is spirituality. It is the unquestionable driving force behind terrorism. It is unquestionably the driving force behind the behavior of the entire Middle Eastern world. It is unquestionably the driving force behind their governments. And it's absolutely a threat to any kind of free government, especially the Constitution. Anybody who believes that "Islam = peace" propaganda has no idea what they're talking about. They are the ones that are naive.

I'm not spouting off about something I read in a book during college. I say what I say because I've seen it with my own two eyes.
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  #91  
Old 5 January 2009, 12:35
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You are right about experience, and I'd be the first to admit this. I'm not a BTDT yet, but I do have a lot of experience with Islam and the Middle East as a civilian. I haven't been in battle in Iraq, but I have attended schools in Yemen. I've walked through their gun markets where gand grenades were selling for $20/pop and RPG rockets going for around $90. I've attended prayer sessions at mosques in Jordan. I've been locked in jail cells in Baalbeck, Lebanon, right across the street from a mosque with Hezbollah flags flying all over it. I've seen a Nazi flag hang from a mosque in Qatar. From the West Bank to Syria to the UAE, I've been pretty much everywhere in that part of the world. I've also seen for myself the Muslim areas in Paris, UK, and other parts of Europe. Everything Bruce Bawer says in "While Europe Slept" is spot on the truth. I've read the Quran in Arabic, or at least most of it. I've studied the Hadiths and history of Islam. I've seen all the different cultures that part of the world has to offer. And while differences do of course exist, to a very large extent all the cultures are largely the same. And they are the same because of one thing - ISLAM.
You haven't been to one Islamic nation that isn't Arab, yet you claim all the cultures are the same because of Islam.

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  #92  
Old 5 January 2009, 13:08
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Anybody who believes that "Islam = peace" propaganda has no idea what they're talking about.
I happen to agree with you on that point. I'm not convinced genocide is the answer though.

This most recent post probably would have served you better as one of your first posts in this thread vice being forced out of you. While some of your conclusions will end up being debated, as GH has noted already, it does bring a bit more meat to the table for you.

I've never seen a Nazi flag hang outside of a mosque in my travels. I'd like to see a picture of that.
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  #93  
Old 5 January 2009, 14:08
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You haven't been to one Islamic nation that isn't Arab, yet you claim all the cultures are the same because of Islam.

I haven't spent time in South Asia, but the Persians aren't Arab, nor most of the nations in the horn of Africa. And the violence being stirred up in Europe/Russia generally hasn't come from Arab Muslims either.

How do you explain the problems in Europe? How do you explain the problems in Russia? How do you explain the problems in Africa? How do you explain the problems in India? Afghanistan also isn't part of the Middle East. Arab culture isn't the cause of problems in Nigeria, it's ISLAM!

How do you explain the findings of the Mapping Sharia project? Their studies indicate that 3/4 mosques in the USA preach anti-Western extremism.

http://www.mappingsharia.us/

One of the most radical guys I've ever come across was a British guy in the gulf. We were the only two white guys in an Arabic class. Rabid radical. I had a similar experience in Yemen as well, except it was an American.

When these guys convert to Islam in the west (or wherever) who do they seek out? They seek out the Islamic scholars, and where do they live? They live in the Middle East. What societies do they use as a model for their own? The ones in the Middle East. Where do the Imams at the mosques in the USA and Europe go for their training and their religious schooling? The Middle East. This is the whole logic behind the barbarism in Saudi Arabia. They are protecting the two holy mosques. Saudi Arabia is intended to be a pure example of Islamic society. So they say.

In the words of an Iraqi friend of mine, "we do not want the bill of rights or capitalism, we want Islam!"
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  #94  
Old 5 January 2009, 14:48
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I happen to agree with you on that point. I'm not convinced genocide is the answer though.

This most recent post probably would have served you better as one of your first posts in this thread vice being forced out of you. While some of your conclusions will end up being debated, as GH has noted already, it does bring a bit more meat to the table for you.
I don't think genocide is the answer either. I should never have used that word. Genocide is a word meant for a group of people, but I was trying to use it with a ideology/religion. Like genociding Naziism. Again, wrong word to use. In WWII we were targeting the ideology of Naziism and National Socialism, not Germans.

In that same way I see Islam as the enemy, not Muslims or Arabs or Persians or Indonesians or any groups of people or individual people.

I don't think we should go around forcing our way on the rest of the world. The people in the Middle East can live however the heck they want. It's their life, their problem. But when they threaten us I start beating the war drum.

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I've never seen a Nazi flag hang outside of a mosque in my travels. I'd like to see a picture of that.
I don't have a picture but I'll ask a friend of mine who might. It was the mosque across the street from the US Embassy in Qatar. My friend was a Marine guard at the embassy when this happened. He got a good, long look standing on top of the Embassy with binoculars. He might have taken a picture, or one of his fellow Marines probably did. I only got a glimpse. There was a big event that proceeded this but I can't remember what it was. May have been when Israel went into Lebanon in 06. Nothing actually happened though. They were just making a statement, hence the proximity to the US embassy and then took the flag down after a while.

If you've travelled in the Middle East I'm sure you've seen plenty of swastikas though. My goodness. I saw a swastika tee shirt even in the UAE. And all over the Arabian Peninsula I've seen swastikas spray painted on walls and buildings everywhere. There was one right outside a housing compound I lived in. I saw it when I drove by every day. It remained for well over a year and nobody went and painted over it. Painted in a perfect location so all the westerners in the compound would see it when they drove out every morning. They even took the time to spray it on properly, a diamond shape rather than a square.
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  #95  
Old 5 January 2009, 15:19
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Greenhat,

Here are two interesting articles on the subject.

http://dharmaveer.blogspot.com/2009/...cal-islam.html

Favorite quote, "In numerous Hadith, Muhammed says that the best muslim is not one who fasts and prays, but who gets on his horse and fights against infidels (especially polytheists) for the spread of Islam. That is what Bin Laden is doing. What about the innocent women and children he kills? Guess what - the Hadith emphatically state that it is perfectly alright to kill the women and children of polytheists. Nothing Bin Laden does is outside the Kuran and Hadith. He is not a "radical" muslim, he is merely a practising muslim!"

http://pajamasmedia.com/ronrosenbaum...-nazi-party-2/

"Hamas is not committed merely to the political goal of expelling Jews from the land of Israel but to what they believe is a sacred religious goal of exterminating all Jews everywhere behind every tree in creation."
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  #96  
Old 5 January 2009, 15:51
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Labeling a worldwide religion as "the enemy" will certainly only bring more harm to the shores of the US, and create suffering on a global scale.

I will be the first to acknowledge that Islam has some serious issues and contradictions within itself. It is a way of life and does not deal strictly with religious issues only.

But by painting a entire religion with one brush, you are playing right into the hands of the extremists.

As for HAMAS's statements - One must try to look past some of the firebrand rhetoric meant more for internal consumption than external. I believe HAMAS will negotiate if they feel it is in their best interest to do so.

Israel's challenge will be to show the more moderate political wing of HAMAS the error of their ways.
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  #97  
Old 5 January 2009, 16:01
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In that same way I see Islam as the enemy, not Muslims or Arabs or Persians or Indonesians or any groups of people or individual people.
I think the core of the disagreement can be boiled down to this - do you see the religion as the enemy, or the people who follow the religion.

My personal viewpoint is that Islam isn't the enemy, rather muslims who harbor backward thoughts are. You can kill muslims that want to kill us, make others think twice before attacking, convince/befriend those that are willing to abide by modern standards, but you can never truly eliminate the ideology, only the stucture that supports it.

Also, there are a whole host of local issues at play as well within Islam and countries that have issues between muslims and [insert local religion here]. In many cases, you have two somewhat uneducated populations at each others necks for various reasons. One just happens to be muslim.

Heck, put fundamentalist muslims from different sects or political factions within a room and see how it goes. Fatah and Hamas have been known to fight it out between each other. Power, religion, politics, uneducated and fickle masses make for a nice pot to stir.

My 2 cents...
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  #98  
Old 5 January 2009, 16:16
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I think the core of the disagreement can be boiled down to this - do you see the religion as the enemy, or the people who follow the religion.
I see the enemy in others also. There's plenty of non Islam following people who threaten my way of life as well. They need to be dealt with via as strong a hand as we deal with those that use Islam to threaten what we believe in.

Those that follow Islam and don't try to kill us, I'm cool with. Same way I'm cool with atheist, buddist, global warming advocates, catholics and any other belief. I may not agree with them and laugh at some of their antics but as long as they aren't trying to kill me or threaten my way of life, I can live with them just like others live with me.

So in a nut shell, the enemy is anyone who says he is my or my nations enemy or attacks my nation or it citizenry or is making plans to do so.
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  #99  
Old 5 January 2009, 16:32
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So in a nut shell, the enemy is anyone who says he is my or my nations enemy or attacks my nation or it citizenry or is making plans to do so.
Agreed. At the end of the day, whatever the motivation, they need to be fought to prevent our citizens and national interests from being harmed.
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  #100  
Old 5 January 2009, 18:05
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I see the enemy in others also. There's plenty of non Islam following people who threaten my way of life as well. They need to be dealt with via as strong a hand as we deal with those that use Islam to threaten what we believe in.

Those that follow Islam and don't try to kill us, I'm cool with. Same way I'm cool with atheist, buddist, global warming advocates, catholics and any other belief. I may not agree with them and laugh at some of their antics but as long as they aren't trying to kill me or threaten my way of life, I can live with them just like others live with me.

So in a nut shell, the enemy is anyone who says he is my or my nations enemy or attacks my nation or it citizenry or is making plans to do so.

Yep. X100
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