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  #21  
Old 28 October 2017, 11:00
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Originally Posted by Gsniper View Post
I guess it makes too much sense to take an already filled Infantry brigade and put them thru 6 weeks of additional pre deployment training if you have to send them out on a FID mission. I guess that's not special enough. Once again, it's good to be retired.
Yep, nailed it. Been many units doing just that the last 15 years. Indiana national guard LRS unit was activated back in 2004 IIRC, and they did not do LRS stuff. They went to Afghan and spent one year training Afghan army troops.
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  #22  
Old 28 October 2017, 11:39
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Been going on every since the war started. I guess it will just work a lot better if they get a cool new name and some new headgear. Oh yeah, and strip 6 brigades worth of NCO's from an already stretched thin conventional force. This sounds like a great idea all the way around. Hell, I might come out of retirement and volunteer, not.

Might come in handy when we have to FID North Korea or Iran to death.
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  #23  
Old 28 October 2017, 12:18
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When I read about the concept of the SFAB in this other thread :
http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=130913 - it made a lot of sense to me.
However, the apparent intent to make them "SF-lite" with the berets, tabs, etc. seems just wrong. Why can't this type of unit be stood up without this obvious offense to SF?

Looking at the big picture - I am guessing Big Army is acknowledging that FID may become more commodity, and that SF may not be able to scale given anticipated needs of the future?

Back to my lane.
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  #24  
Old 28 October 2017, 14:17
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I predicted this back in 2008 or 2009, in writing, on this board. The part that I got wrong was that I predicted that the USMC would try to take the FID mission over since at the time SF had no interest in doing anything that didn't involve kicking doors. I guess I was at least partially right. I wish I had been wrong.
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  #25  
Old 28 October 2017, 15:02
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While the mission is important and at a minimum the soldiers assigned or it should at least be interested enough to be volunteers, the rest of the patch and beret nonsense shows how rediculus the Army has become.

I was on a MiTT in 07' partnered with 1/5/6 IA. We basically had 0 training beforehand other than 3 weeks of PowerPoint at Taji on how the war was going, artificial timelines etc. 6 weeks of training and a volunteer force is a lot better than that IMO, and there are a lot of conventional foreign forces that could benefit from US partnering. Attached is the change.org petition to stop issue of the green beret:

https://www.change.org/p/special-ope...stance-brigade
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  #26  
Old 28 October 2017, 18:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godzilla View Post
Discipline, professionalism and an elite culture doesn't come from exterior bling. That shit is forged in realistic training, enforcing standards of readiness, performance, and conduct amongst other things.
Well said.
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One VERY large calif team came over afterwards and actually apologized for their beliefs, based upon our looks, that we shouldn't be there. In the end we made good contacts with them and trained and cross pollinated our TTPs.
Buttermaker?
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  #27  
Old 28 October 2017, 19:45
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History is full of these same mistakes, and nobody ever learns the lessons.
Success has many fathers, but failure is always an orphan.

Anyone remember when the AFPAK Hands program was going to win the war for us? If you do, you and I are the only ones that remember that failed program, consigned to the scrap heap. SFAB will go the same way, and fast. Big Army does not really want to be involved in FID. They think they do, but they don't understand FID or what it requires.
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  #28  
Old 28 October 2017, 20:31
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I always got a kick out of the "Provincial Reconstruction Teams" in Afghanistan. How do you reconstruct something was never constructed? Another massive money hole.
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  #29  
Old 28 October 2017, 21:32
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I always got a kick out of the "Provincial Reconstruction Teams" in Afghanistan. How do you reconstruct something was never constructed? Another massive money hole.
Well said.
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  #30  
Old 29 October 2017, 09:02
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We did this to ourselves, by allowing ourselves to become obsessed with DA through the mid-2000's, while turning our back on FID, regional orientation, cultural awareness...

Way back in 2003-04, we had the mission to establish and run whatever they called the Academy in Kabul to train the ANA and produce whatever the number was, (80,000 is the number that sticks in my mind), of trained and equipped Afghan's and then we said we could "safely" leave AStan. 1st BN 3rd GP had the first go at it.

By 2005 we had talked our way out of that mission so we could go out and kick in doors and shoot people and MG Reeder formally handed it over to I believe 10th MTN initially.

Around that time we settled into the 5th/10th and 3rd/7th rotations in Iraq and AStan, with 1st bouncing around both.

Because of it, Groups adjusted their language focus to include a CENTCOM language base, at least a percentage of their folks, instead of their traditional languages based on their rotations to either AStan or Iraq.

Then came MiTTs, ETT's, OMLT's, and a host of other OER Bullet inducing acronyms in both ASTan and Iraq. Sure, we kept the Commando mission, or certain Police Units, but in the mean time, Big Army is convincing itself that a few weeks at Fort Riley and they can do FID right alongside the Big Boyz, and we did nothing to counter that message.

Since that time, IMO we have failed miserably as an Army to train either nation to defend itself adequately. ISIS proved that when it took them literally a week to run over the Iraqi Army that we spent ten+/- years training and left $6 Billion worth of equipment with since it was going to cost $10 Million to bring it home. Two or three weeks ago the Taliban demonstrated it again when they tore through a Afghan National Army unit in KHar province like a hot knife through butter.

YouTube is rife with video's of how the conventional force (Army and Marines) does not "get" working with other nations' militaries. They are funny, but do little good. Heck, we barely retain the required skills and nuances as a force.

By showing our lack of real interest in FID, it left the door wide open for anyone looking to capitalize on an area virtually guaranteed to give you long term relevance...remember how we used to preach the ODA was an implement of US Foreign Policy? Well, Big Army saw the writing on the wall and is seizing the opportunity, and running with the ball full bore.

I posted back in 2006-07 about how as a Force we had lost our "Thing." What is it that when a folder is dropped on the table in front of the NCA and they open it and it says "X" and POTUS immediately says get SF on the horn, this is theirs? Well, its been whittled down to pretty much nothing but UW, and we all know how long that comes around.

The question for our leadership is what to do now? If we are not careful, we may become completely irrelevant. Once Big Army says, "Look we are now Masters of FID, regional orientation, cultural awareness, etc., and FID is the flipside of the UW coin, so we can now do UW," we may find ourselves on the carpet answering the question, "What is it you do that no one else does to justify keeping your around?"
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  #31  
Old 29 October 2017, 09:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDRODA396 View Post
We did this to ourselves, by allowing ourselves to become obsessed with DA through the mid-2000's, while turning our back on FID, regional orientation, cultural awareness...

Way back in 2003-04, we had the mission to establish and run whatever they called the Academy in Kabul to train the ANA and produce whatever the number was, (80,000 is the number that sticks in my mind), of trained and equipped Afghan's and then we said we could "safely" leave AStan. 1st BN 3rd GP had the first go at it.

By 2005 we had talked our way out of that mission so we could go out and kick in doors and shoot people and MG Reeder formally handed it over to I believe 10th MTN initially.

Around that time we settled into the 5th/10th and 3rd/7th rotations in Iraq and AStan, with 1st bouncing around both.

Because of it, Groups adjusted their language focus to include a CENTCOM language base, at least a percentage of their folks, instead of their traditional languages based on their rotations to either AStan or Iraq.

Then came MiTTs, ETT's, OMLT's, and a host of other OER Bullet inducing acronyms in both ASTan and Iraq. Sure, we kept the Commando mission, or certain Police Units, but in the mean time, Big Army is convincing itself that a few weeks at Fort Riley and they can do FID right alongside the Big Boyz, and we did nothing to counter that message.

Since that time, IMO we have failed miserably as an Army to train either nation to defend itself adequately. ISIS proved that when it took them literally a week to run over the Iraqi Army that we spent ten+/- years training and left $6 Billion worth of equipment with since it was going to cost $10 Million to bring it home. Two or three weeks ago the Taliban demonstrated it again when they tore through a Afghan National Army unit in KHar province like a hot knife through butter.

YouTube is rife with video's of how the conventional force (Army and Marines) does not "get" working with other nations' militaries. They are funny, but do little good. Heck, we barely retain the required skills and nuances as a force.

By showing our lack of real interest in FID, it left the door wide open for anyone looking to capitalize on an area virtually guaranteed to give you long term relevance...remember how we used to preach the ODA was an implement of US Foreign Policy? Well, Big Army saw the writing on the wall and is seizing the opportunity, and running with the ball full bore.

I posted back in 2006-07 about how as a Force we had lost our "Thing." What is it that when a folder is dropped on the table in front of the NCA and they open it and it says "X" and POTUS immediately says get SF on the horn, this is theirs? Well, its been whittled down to pretty much nothing but UW, and we all know how long that comes around.

The question for our leadership is what to do now? If we are not careful, we may become completely irrelevant. Once Big Army says, "Look we are now Masters of FID, regional orientation, cultural awareness, etc., and FID is the flipside of the UW coin, so we can now do UW," we may find ourselves on the carpet answering the question, "What is it you do that no one else does to justify keeping your around?"

Yep. This wasn't hard to see coming if you were watching SF from the outside for the last 15 years. Having lived in the same house with more than a couple of ODAs, I can specifically remember listening to the conversations on this topic. There were traditional old school SF guys that tried to make the case that DA was a tool in the toolbox but was not supposed to be the primary mission of SF. The most common comment was if you want to kick doors every night go to the Regiment or CAG. We are here to do SF stuff. Then there was the other side, typically the 18X crowd and young CPTs who felt that they were taking SF in a new direction and the UW/FID crowd were just afraid to evolve. Its pretty apparent which side prevailed.
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  #32  
Old 29 October 2017, 10:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDRODA396 View Post
We did this to ourselves, by allowing ourselves to become obsessed with DA through the mid-2000's, while turning our back on FID, regional orientation, cultural awareness...

Way back in 2003-04, we had the mission to establish and run whatever they called the Academy in Kabul to train the ANA and produce whatever the number was, (80,000 is the number that sticks in my mind), of trained and equipped Afghan's and then we said we could "safely" leave AStan. 1st BN 3rd GP had the first go at it.

By 2005 we had talked our way out of that mission so we could go out and kick in doors and shoot people and MG Reeder formally handed it over to I believe 10th MTN initially.

Around that time we settled into the 5th/10th and 3rd/7th rotations in Iraq and AStan, with 1st bouncing around both.

Because of it, Groups adjusted their language focus to include a CENTCOM language base, at least a percentage of their folks, instead of their traditional languages based on their rotations to either AStan or Iraq.

Then came MiTTs, ETT's, OMLT's, and a host of other OER Bullet inducing acronyms in both ASTan and Iraq. Sure, we kept the Commando mission, or certain Police Units, but in the mean time, Big Army is convincing itself that a few weeks at Fort Riley and they can do FID right alongside the Big Boyz, and we did nothing to counter that message.

Since that time, IMO we have failed miserably as an Army to train either nation to defend itself adequately. ISIS proved that when it took them literally a week to run over the Iraqi Army that we spent ten+/- years training and left $6 Billion worth of equipment with since it was going to cost $10 Million to bring it home. Two or three weeks ago the Taliban demonstrated it again when they tore through a Afghan National Army unit in KHar province like a hot knife through butter.

YouTube is rife with video's of how the conventional force (Army and Marines) does not "get" working with other nations' militaries. They are funny, but do little good. Heck, we barely retain the required skills and nuances as a force.

By showing our lack of real interest in FID, it left the door wide open for anyone looking to capitalize on an area virtually guaranteed to give you long term relevance...remember how we used to preach the ODA was an implement of US Foreign Policy? Well, Big Army saw the writing on the wall and is seizing the opportunity, and running with the ball full bore.

I posted back in 2006-07 about how as a Force we had lost our "Thing." What is it that when a folder is dropped on the table in front of the NCA and they open it and it says "X" and POTUS immediately says get SF on the horn, this is theirs? Well, its been whittled down to pretty much nothing but UW, and we all know how long that comes around.

The question for our leadership is what to do now? If we are not careful, we may become completely irrelevant. Once Big Army says, "Look we are now Masters of FID, regional orientation, cultural awareness, etc., and FID is the flipside of the UW coin, so we can now do UW," we may find ourselves on the carpet answering the question, "What is it you do that no one else does to justify keeping your around?"
My ODA was the last SF element to conduct basic training for the ANA (2003). We were replaced by a National Guard infantry element.

As we approached hand-off for the training, I felt like I was the only guy yelling "What the hell are we doing, turning this over to conventional folks?" The answer was always that SF was too busy and too valuable to be tasked with such mundane activity as conducting basic training.

I kept pointing out that training and working alongside foreign forces was our thing, and that you could not unscramble the egg once that task was handed off to conventional folks.

"Wait until after the war," I would say, "when the Missouri National Guard want to conduct FID. If you tell them that is a Army Special Forces mission, they will point out that they did it in combat, so they can do it now."

While I would love to think I was a true visionary, foreseeing this, I am not. It was only obvious that this would result. I was just the only guy in the discussions back at KMTC, Bagram, and then-MG Eikenberry's office downtown that was concerned with more than just the next OER.
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  #33  
Old 29 October 2017, 10:35
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There were a shit pile of NG TDA cobbled togather units doing advisory work with the ANA about that same time frame. Several buds of mine got snatched out of their regular Infantry units and sent out of gigs like this. It got cranked up around 03ish. I forgot what the technical name of the program was, but a lot of those guys would stop by our FOB when they transited Ghazni with their ANA units.
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  #34  
Old 29 October 2017, 13:21
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They haven't stolen a thing. US Army Special Forces gifted them with this responsibility because we are too busy to do it ourselves.

We could have made the case that if there was too much FID for SF to handle - give us the SFAB moeny, and let us grow to meet the need...
...but we are busy chasing our pet projects. Besides, FID is beneath us and we have more important things to do.

They are not stealing - they are just smart enough NOT to look a gift horse in the mouth.
...and their SDAP is supposed to be higher than what an SF guy gets as well.
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  #35  
Old 29 October 2017, 15:10
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This reminds me of the comment made by a young SF E-6 CIF guy in Iraq at Area 4. "The only difference between us and CAG is that they have a bigger budget. If they would just give us half the money they spend on them, they wouldn't even need CAG."

I laughed. Couldn't help it. He was quite full of himself.
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  #36  
Old 29 October 2017, 15:59
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Ironically, all the young Rangers circa 1978-1980 said the exact same thing about CAG. The more CT focus we adopted, the more folks we sent to high speed schools, and the more we worked around "those" guys... the more sure we were that somebody oughta just hand us that mission full time. Our Battalion elders knew better, but we sure didn't.

We were full of ourselves as well.
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  #37  
Old 29 October 2017, 19:13
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^^^^^^
We lost a lot of Great Rangers to those guys!!!!
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  #38  
Old 29 October 2017, 20:24
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Ironically, all the young Rangers circa 1978-1980 said the exact same thing about CAG. The more CT focus we adopted, the more folks we sent to high speed schools, and the more we worked around "those" guys... the more sure we were that somebody oughta just hand us that mission full time. Our Battalion elders knew better, but we sure didn't.

We were full of ourselves as well.
and conventional guys said it of Regt.... lots of people want to be/believe they're more special or better than they are (as a unit).
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  #39  
Old 30 October 2017, 00:16
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and conventional guys said it of Regt.... lots of people want to be/believe they're more special or better than they are (as a unit).
There has always been inter/intra service rivalry. Ever Commander wants to think his unit is the best in his Batt/Bde/Div. Ever service branch fights for every dollar they can get and if that means conducting new missions to say " hey we can do that to", well there will be an attempt to prove it.

In the long run it boils down to bullets on an OER.

This current concept is stupid and soldiers will get killed.

6 whole weeks of train up. Yea, that's just fucking dandy.
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  #40  
Old 30 October 2017, 08:27
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The champions of this idea will throw math at all of the nay-sayers to show that they are plenty-well trained after six weeks.

SFQC takes 'about' 52 weeks and it is an MOS producing course. MOS phase takes the longest so lets say 30 weeks to be an 18B/C/D/E. Since the SFABs will already have an MOS, we don't need MOS phase of the Q-course:
...and we are down to 22 weeks

Since they will not be attending SFAS prior to assignment, we can take another 3 weeks from the tally and now we are down to 19 weeks.

Robin Sage takes 4 weeks so the SFABs are now down to 15 weeks.

SERE and SUT wont be needed so there goes another 13 weeks which leaves just two weeks in the SFQC to teach SF guys how to be a (rifle) Green Beret.

The (sage) Green Berets will get 6 weeks of specialized training. When you take away all of those SFQC specific training weeks, a little simple math shows that the (sage) Green Berets will actually get three times as much specialty training in order to serve in an SFAB.

...that's probably why they will get SDAP at a higher rate.


Do the math and you will see that this is actually a great idea.
Long live the legi0n !!!
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