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Old 19 May 2018, 20:14
Ted Dibiase Ted Dibiase is offline
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WW1 vs WW2 Casualties vs The Truth

Okay, I know this is controversial. But I need some Ďsplaininí to.

If Iím off base, set me straight. But if youíve asked yourself like questions let me know.

I never paid much attention to WW1 until recently. As an American I have been saturated in WW2 soup since birth.

Getting to the problem, and known exposure to being torn apart, but I donít believe WW2 casualty ( vs WW1 casualty as litmus ) comparison. Heck Cold Harbor American Civil War has more fatalities in less than 20 minutes than D-Day.

WW2 fatalities have inflated almost 10x since the end of hostilities.

As comparison, Over the entire Pacific theater 30+ odd American Army divisions and 16~ odd USMC divisions were involved. The majority of those troops were sitting on turf not in combat. In WW1 at the first battle of Verdun the Germans had ~50 divisions and the French ~80 divisions shooting at each other point blank for 6+ months with gas, artillery, machine guns etc.

40+ million shells since 1946 have been removed from Verdun and another 12 million are believed to still need removal. And thatís just one battlefield! WW2 battle lines were dynamic where WW1 were static - in short I just donít believe WW2 had enough people shooting at each other to get those insanely high casualties.

Anyway, there it is.
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Old 19 May 2018, 20:18
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What specific numbers are you looking at, and what is the source of those numbers? Where are you getting different numbers that have inflated since the end of hostilities?
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Old 19 May 2018, 20:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Dibiase View Post
Over the entire Pacific theater 30+ odd American Army divisions and 16~ odd USMC divisions were involved. The majority of those troops were sitting on turf not in combat.
At its largest, there were six USMC divisions. I've never heard of another eleven; from what source are you getting that number?
Quote:
Anyway, there it is.
There's what? I'm unsure what you're proposing. Are you suggesting that the numbers of dead from each world war are different from those currently in widespread use?
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Old 19 May 2018, 20:51
Ted Dibiase Ted Dibiase is offline
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There isnít a book or website I can point you to.

Itís a lot of books and a lot of articles /interviews/ websites, youíre asking me about individual sentences in dozens and dozens of books Iíve retained somehow - an easy example is if you look at Russian casualties ww2 they have gone up none stop since Yalta.

The WW2 Germans killed ~35K civilians in western allied occupied nations. WW1 Germans starved hundreds of thousands to death just with the needs of their army.

I wonít name it b/c of attracting trash but certain ethnic group civilian casualties started at about 700,000 and are now 9 times that.

If you compare ww2 battle of Kursk vs totally forgotten and just another battle in WW1 Brusilovs Advance in WW1, youíll see my point, or attempt there of.
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Old 19 May 2018, 20:56
Ted Dibiase Ted Dibiase is offline
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
At its largest, there were six USMC divisions. I've never heard of another eleven; from what source are you getting that number?

Iíll try and dig it up. Not a ď7th-16th USMCĒ division but total men fielded. Sorry for the lack of clarity.


There's what? I'm unsure what you're proposing. Are you suggesting that the numbers of dead from each world war are different from those currently in widespread use?
Yes.
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Old 19 May 2018, 21:16
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You are coming across as a bit...off...right now. Everything ok?
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Old 19 May 2018, 22:03
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This is a WW1 web site for the 100 years I get up dates once a week it will tell you how many were KIA during each battle, How many were lost to the Flue
WW1 Dispatch Newsletter

Dispatch@connect.worldwar1centennial.org
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File Type: png WW1.png (75.9 KB, 178 views)
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Old 20 May 2018, 00:22
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
At its largest, there were six USMC divisions. I've never heard of another eleven; from what source are you getting that number?
It sounds like a confusion of regiments and divisions.
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Old 20 May 2018, 07:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
You are coming across as a bit...off...right now. Everything ok?
Agreed.

Quote:
I wonít name it b/c of attracting trash but certain ethnic group civilian casualties started at about 700,000 and are now 9 times that.
If you are referring to the ethnic population I think you are, that number has been 6 million since I was a little kid learning about it in the Sixties.
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Old 20 May 2018, 09:41
82Redleg 82Redleg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Dibiase View Post
...WW2 fatalities have inflated almost 10x since the end of hostilities.
Where did you read this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Dibiase View Post
As comparison, Over the entire Pacific theater 30+ odd American Army divisions and 16~ odd USMC divisions were involved. The majority of those troops were sitting on turf not in combat. In WW1 at the first battle of Verdun the Germans had ~50 divisions and the French ~80 divisions shooting at each other point blank for 6+ months with gas, artillery, machine guns etc.
As others have noted, only 6 USMC divisions, and 22 US Army divisions (counting the Philippine Division) which was destroyed/surrendered in 1942.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Dibiase View Post
40+ million shells since 1946 have been removed from Verdun and another 12 million are believed to still need removal. And thatís just one battlefield! WW2 battle lines were dynamic where WW1 were static - in short I just donít believe WW2 had enough people shooting at each other to get those insanely high casualties.

Anyway, there it is.
US military casualties in WW1 were 116,516 (out of 4.7million that served over ~17 months, with combat about 200 days)(https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_usa), while WW2 were 416,800 (out of 16.1 million that served, over a period of 3-1/2 years) (https://www.nationalww2museum.org/students-teachers/student-resources/research-starters/research-starters-worldwide-deaths-world-war and http://www.wwiifoundation.org/students/wwii-facts-figures/).

Depending on when and where you start, WW2 (1939-1945, or even 1933-1945 if you count Japan vs China) was significantly longer than WW1 (1914-1918). The other thing that you're not considering is the intentional murder of civilians, particularly by the Nazis but also by the Japanese. And the increase in weapon capabilities, particularly strategic bombing, that increased the impact on civilian populations. I'd hazard a guess that the US killed a negligible number (statistically, nearly zero) of German, Austro-Hungarian, and Ottoman civilians during WW1- we didn't fight in their territories and didn't have significant capability to attack their homelands. This is not true in WW2- large numbers of German and Japanese civilians were killed by US strategic bombing. Britannica estimates 13,000,000 civilian casualties for WW1, while the National WW2 museum estimates 45,000,000 civilian deaths for WW2. The two wars were significantly different.
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Old 20 May 2018, 12:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubar View Post
If you are referring to the ethnic population I think you are, that number has been 6 million since I was a little kid learning about it in the Sixties.
Ditto.

The only area of this that I feel I can speak to is German civilian casualties within Germany during WWII. If any area was underestimated I think this would have to be it, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there were a lot of refugee's who had moved from one city after it was bombed flat to another one only to die there, not necessarily being accounted for. Secondly, often there was no real opportunity, even among people who kept exacting records of the activities of Einsatzgruppe on the Eastern Front earlier in the war (that were later used to convict them) to do the same for their own during the last 6 months or so of the war, and little incentive to do so as they were busy telling people the war was not lost when everyone knew in their heart that it was.

Most of the cities in Germany LOOK like they predate the war when in fact they do not, buildings which look like they are a couple hundred years old in fact were rebuilt in that style, if not near exact replica's. There was nothing in Hamburg taller than a foot or two off the ground, and many other cities much the same. Dresden is the best known example of deliberately creating a fire storm in a major city but it's far from the only one. My in-laws are both still alive, lived through WWII as children, admittedly not that old then but man, I can promise you it's the one thing they never forgot, or really forgave the Allies for.

In addition, German civilian casualties did not end when the war did. Post-rape murder of German females was more common than is talked about now, admittedly the Soviets were by far the major offenders here (the War Memorial just outside the former East Berlin is often referred to as "The Tomb of the Unknown Rapist") but I have easily read hundreds, maybe even a couple thousand books on this time period over my lifetime and it has been stated over and over that no one investigated dead Germans being found (or not) here and there much in the the first year or two after V-E Day. Life was cheap, and stayed that way for a while.
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  #12  
Old 20 May 2018, 13:45
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Divisions or Regiments??

sounds like he is confused. I would hope that I would have made SOME effort to check my numbers before I claimed THERE IT IS.

In other news I recently read that in the European Theater of Operations, Army airmen casualties were greater than the ground troop losses. I remember thinking WOW, but I didn't make any effort to confirm or deny because I don't think of the number of deaths as a measure of anything good.
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Old 20 May 2018, 13:58
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubar View Post
Agreed.



If you are referring to the ethnic population I think you are, that number has been 6 million since I was a little kid learning about it in the Sixties.
I agree with you, in school I'll just say from the 1950's thru 1960's it was a requirement to take U.S. History, World History etc. U.S. History covered from the start of the U.S., the Civil War, all the way thru WW2. What is published today an taught in school now days leaves out a lot of correct information. Or misquoted information. Also individuals are rewriting our History to the way they think.

Just like people think the Civil War was about slavery. It wasn't! It was economics an the price of products produced by the Northern States, an the price the South was getting for raw materials
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Old 20 May 2018, 14:25
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Originally Posted by Remington Raider View Post
In other news I recently read that in the European Theater of Operations, Army airmen casualties were greater than the ground troop losses.
Good point. Just the WWII KIAs for the European Theater 8th Air Force (26,000) outnumber the entire USMC KIA for the war (24,500). Massive amounts of losses all around. Only around 8% of all Russians born in one year (IIRC 1932) survived the war.

9 of 10 British combat soldiers survived the Great War.
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