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  #21  
Old 16 February 2018, 15:52
Gsniper Gsniper is online now
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Good call. If you have a 60% fail rate something has to give. Honest introspection is a rare skill. Some dudes just aren't wired for the craft, but honest assessment of your training methods is always a good place to start.
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  #22  
Old 16 February 2018, 16:04
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Originally Posted by Gsniper View Post
Good call. If you have a 60% fail rate something has to give. Honest introspection is a rare skill. Some dudes just aren't wired for the craft, but honest assessment of your training methods is always a good place to start.
Having the WTBn SgtMaj breathing down your throat helped the introspection
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  #23  
Old 16 February 2018, 16:08
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Assisted introspection.
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  #24  
Old 16 February 2018, 16:32
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Once upon a time in a land called Quantico at the SSIS our attrition rate was around 60%. HQMC wanted an investigation as there was a lot of travel and perdiem being wasted to get guys to the school to just have them fail.

We immediately pointed out that the Divisions weren't sending us guys that met the prerequisites. They were failing the entry landnav, weren't scoring 1st class on the entry PFT, low GT scores etc.

We also looked at the POI. Around this time we were conducting a total rewrite of the course material to meet ISD standards. Up to this point the school was really a "course" that MTU ran. In order to put it in the formal school catalogue we had to develop tasks, conditions and standards for everything. Up to this point it was basically we taught whatever Gy Hathcock and Capt Cuddy had determined to be important and the standards were whatever the Canadians and the Brit Marines used.

One example was that we switched from KD practice on FBI silhouettes to NRA repair centers which served to tighten up groups and take the slop out of the students brains. Instead of a huge silhouette they were aiming for a roughly MOA "X" ring. (Note this is also about the time that the ammo went to shit with Special Ball. That is another story for another day my children)

But the biggest change was in our mindset as instructors. At this time we were all FMF snipers and recon dudes. All of the Hathcock era team shooters were gone and were replaced by young, hard dick, FMF NCOs. We were pretty much assholes. We took a hard look at being mentors and teachers and reeled in the "I need to make this harder on these guys than I had it" mentality.

Not only did the graduation rate improve but we started putting out some steely eyed killers that I till think were among the best I ever worked with.
This post made me sport half-wood.
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  #25  
Old 19 April 2018, 11:20
namor namor is offline
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I went to S/S school when it was all "Hathcock era" shooters (a then retired Gunny Hathcock actually met with my class and gave us some moto!). The fail rate was very low as I recall, but the standards for being chosen to attend were very high.

I doubt another pre-qual test would change things much by itself. Without sounding like the old timer I've become, isn't boot camp supposed to weed out anyone who doesn't meet the "grit" test levels? How can you get through that without grit? And I would not have thought that a statistical analysis was required to determine that you need be be a mid-to-high scoring Expert rifle shot to be a successful sniper graduate.

I suggest that instead of creating some type of pre-screen test to predict success we go back to an earlier concept: Marine leaders exercising good judgment in choosing who to send. The operational theory was to blame the sending command for failures, not the school for being demanding of them...
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  #26  
Old 19 April 2018, 11:40
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Not sure what the USMC's pre-reqs are, but the Army is: Normal color vision, 110GT score, 250 APFT, Expert rifle qual. I think that's it other than commander's recommendation, etc.

Nobody has come up yet with a way to predict the intangibles it takes to graduate from a high stress school.

Lots of guys wash out of schools like sniper, Ranger, BUDS etc who are more than mentally(intelligence wise) and physically capable of completing, they just lack something.

Not sure we'll ever really find a way to pre-qualify the intangibles required to excel in this type of training.
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  #27  
Old 19 April 2018, 12:03
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Isn't boot camp supposed to weed out anyone who doesn't meet the "grit" test levels? How can you get through that without grit? ...
I abbreviated your post, only to illustrate that comparing the "grit" to graduate USMC Boot Camp is an entirely different flavor "grit" that is takes to graduate from USMC Scout/Sniper Course.

Thank you for your service namor, I was in school and shooting the range for which he was named when Carlos Hathcock passed away.
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  #28  
Old 20 April 2018, 15:53
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Originally Posted by Gooch
But the biggest change was in our mindset as instructors. At this time we were all FMF snipers and recon dudes. All of the Hathcock era team shooters were gone and were replaced by young, hard dick, FMF NCOs. We were pretty much assholes. We took a hard look at being mentors and teachers and reeled in the "I need to make this harder on these guys than I had it" mentality.

Not only did the graduation rate improve but we started putting out some steely eyed killers that I till think were among the best I ever worked with.
And we got to learn Gooch Foo as well
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  #29  
Old 20 April 2018, 16:04
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Not sure what the USMC's pre-reqs are, but the Army is: Normal color vision, 110GT score, 250 APFT, Expert rifle qual. I think that's it other than commander's recommendation, etc.

In addition, I had to take one of those 700 question psych tests and about an hour long interview with a shrink. That was 90 or 91 at the Benning school. Not sure if they still do that. Asked the Doc if I was Okay at the end and he laughed a little bit and said "I wouldn't go so far as to say you are okay but as a Sniper you will do just fine."
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  #30  
Old 20 April 2018, 17:13
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MMPI. I've done it about a half a dozen times. If you got thru it, can't be much to it.
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  #31  
Old 21 April 2018, 22:57
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Normal color vision
Got me every damn time. Iím convinced thereís not one single number in those dots! Liars.
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  #32  
Old 22 April 2018, 07:52
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In addition, I had to take one of those 700 question psych tests and about an hour long interview with a shrink. That was 90 or 91 at the Benning school. Not sure if they still do that. Asked the Doc if I was Okay at the end and he laughed a little bit and said "I wouldn't go so far as to say you are okay but as a Sniper you will do just fine."
He realized you were a don't ask, don't tell case.
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