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Old 13 October 2017, 03:16
Xenophon Xenophon is offline
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Nutrition documentaries

Will lump a few together in 1 thread as they have similar content and interview some of the same scientists and doctors.

Ordered by my recommendation:

Forks Over Knives
Eating You Alive
Fat, Sick, and Nearly Dead
Food Choices

They all recommend a whole-plant based diet. Benefits include:
- reversal of cancer, diabetes, and others
- optimal cholesterol range without medication
- healthier bones; animal protein produces extra acid, which the body neutralizes by extracting calcium from bones

Other insights:
- doctors say they do not get nutrition training because healthcare profits come from treating symptoms and not prevention.
- all nutrition originates in plants (except B12, but still better to not get it from animal products)

I also saw What the Health, which exposes the financial links between the food industry and many organizations trusted by the public. It still covers some science but politics and lobbying are the big focus.

Nutrition has been a recent interest of mine so I'm still learning and would like to hear other perspectives. What made these movies compelling for me is the work of Dr's T. Colin Campbell and Caldwell Esselstyn, who've researched the topic for most of their careers, as well as the recommendation of a friend who said his arthritis went away after switching his diet.
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Old 13 October 2017, 04:00
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Yeah, that whole plant based diet is good and all... except for the fact that was separates us from the savages is our protein intake. When you introduce a high protein diet into Asian culture “amazingly” within a generation they start to get taller and improve muscle mass. So you can pack sand with that argument.

I eat a lot of meat, right now at two meals a day. Due to exercise and healthy fats my HDL is typically off the charts and my LDL is below the bottom of the threashold, and I typically add a tablespoon of butter to my eggs in the morning and a tablespoon on my bone in ribeye for dinner. One of the Gym Jones trainers “Bobby Maximus” just ate steak, with butter, for 100 days. He’s an outlier, who works out constantly, but his numbers are extraordinary.

The “secret” I’ve found? Cut out sugar and workout. It ain’t sexy, and its hard, but “surprise” it works...
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Old 13 October 2017, 04:52
Xenophon Xenophon is offline
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Protein was a major topic across several of the films. Some of the points I recall:
- Protein also originates from plants. Horses, buffalo, elephants, etc get their protein and muscles from plants only.
- Asians also start to see increases in chronic diseases and cancer as they consume more Western-style diets. Dr. Campbell published a book called "The China Study" that showed cancers by region with a 400x difference between high and low. Meat vs plant-based diet was the isolated factor. Differences in height and bulk might be related to general undernourishment in the past more so than the source of protein.
- The casein acidity-calcium issue already mentioned and finding that countries with higher dairy intake had higher rates of osteoporosis.
- With a whole plant diet, one would have to be calorie-deficient to be protein deficient because some of the lowest protein plants (rice, potatoes) still had enough.

Despite the examples of vegan athletes from the movies, most do eat meat so performance isn't an issue. I had a centenarian in the family who ate meat like the rest of us. Yet there were replicated experiments and spiffy animations that show animal products having harmful effects. Just doing some due diligence.
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Old 13 October 2017, 06:17
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Have you done some due diligence and read some of the criticisms of the China study and the movies you listed? The biggest issue with nutrition is you can find research to support almost any diet you want. My conclusions have lead me to believe is to stay away from processed food and sugar.
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Old 13 October 2017, 07:36
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Originally Posted by Xenophon View Post
Protein was a major topic across several of the films. Some of the points I recall:
- Protein also originates from plants. Horses, buffalo, elephants, etc get their protein and muscles from plants only.
- Asians also start to see increases in chronic diseases and cancer as they consume more Western-style diets. Dr. Campbell published a book called "The China Study" that showed cancers by region with a 400x difference between high and low. Meat vs plant-based diet was the isolated factor. Differences in height and bulk might be related to general undernourishment in the past more so than the source of protein.
- The casein acidity-calcium issue already mentioned and finding that countries with higher dairy intake had higher rates of osteoporosis.
- With a whole plant diet, one would have to be calorie-deficient to be protein deficient because some of the lowest protein plants (rice, potatoes) still had enough.

Despite the examples of vegan athletes from the movies, most do eat meat so performance isn't an issue. I had a centenarian in the family who ate meat like the rest of us. Yet there were replicated experiments and spiffy animations that show animal products having harmful effects. Just doing some due diligence.
Totten-Lancaster, who was wounded on Roberts Ridge, is a vegetarian. He runs sub-55min 10 milers and used to be now Genral Tony Thomas’ running buddy. He also passed a very difficult ruck based selection. Complete and utter stud, and rail thin. So I have no doubts that a vegetarian athlete can perform. But not once did I see him in the gym doing a non-body weight workout. Side note, his brother is faster than he is, so I’m guessing genetics plays a huge role.

But news flash, humans aren’t horses, cats, dogs, pachyderms, or sea otters. We have survived and become apex predators on meat since we first started coming across fresh kills and eating the meat. That’s all the “science” I need...
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Old 13 October 2017, 07:53
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Totten-Lancaster, who was wounded on Roberts Ridge, is a vegetarian. He runs sub-55min 10 milers and used to be now Genral Tony Thomas’ running buddy. He also passed a very difficult ruck based selection. Complete and utter stud, and rail thin. So I have no doubts that a vegetarian athlete can perform. But not once did I see him in the gym doing a non-body weight workout. Side note, his brother is faster than he is, so I’m guessing genetics plays a huge role.

But news flash, humans aren’t horses, cats, dogs, pachyderms, or sea otters. We have survived and become apex predators on meat since we first started coming across fresh kills and eating the meat. That’s all the “science” I need...
Here's just a bit of trivia. Old Testament, Genesis...Adam and Eve only ate plants/fruit...until they disobeyed God...that was when eating animals began. http://biblehub.com/genesis/1-29.htm
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Old 13 October 2017, 07:59
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I see this being more about health than TV, Moved to Medical.
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Old 13 October 2017, 13:13
Xenophon Xenophon is offline
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Yes I looked at some criticisms. Some sources are tied to the food and pharmaceutical industry, including a majority of the FDA board members before a lawsuit. The observation was made that there are also biases unrelated to financial gain. Campbell grew up on a dairy farm so it took him a while to digest some of the info. Published results from other labs on animals were duplicated before moving onto larger studies involving people.

Esselstyn was an Olympic gold medalist rower and Army surgeon in Vietnam. His work focused more on heart disease but the movies didn't get into exercise much.
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Old 15 October 2017, 02:35
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Not one known to make the best of decisions so far but Kyrie Irving seems to be giving plant-based a shot.
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Old 15 October 2017, 06:41
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Are you trying to hawk something or what?
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Old 16 October 2017, 11:39
TerribleTed TerribleTed is offline
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Don't put this in medical, put it in humor.

Eating plants reverses cancer???

I guess I dreamed the classes on nutrition, biochemistry, etc, in medical school...

But I'm just in medicine for the money. Just ask everybody else in this hot, dusty place where I currently am.

What are you selling?
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Old 16 October 2017, 21:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenophon View Post
They all recommend a whole-plant based diet. Benefits include:
- reversal of cancer, diabetes, and others
- optimal cholesterol range without medication
- healthier bones; animal protein produces extra acid, which the body neutralizes by extracting calcium from bones

Other insights:
- doctors say they do not get nutrition training because healthcare profits come from treating symptoms and not prevention.
- all nutrition originates in plants (except B12, but still better to not get it from animal products)
What?
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Last edited by Expatmedic; 16 October 2017 at 21:59.
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Old 17 October 2017, 00:58
Xenophon Xenophon is offline
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Not hawking anything, just wondered if anyone else had seen these films and compared info with other sources. I only recently got interested in the topic and there's a lot of conflicting info. They interview doctors saying that the average doc gets negligible nutrition training in med school, glad it wasn't the case for you. Have you heard of the works of Dr. T. Colin Campbell or Caldwell Esselstyn? It's their claims that amused you :) I'm just trying to learn a bit, clean up my diet, haven't done anything drastic so far.

Last edited by Xenophon; 17 October 2017 at 01:26.
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Old 17 October 2017, 01:12
PatrickofSteele PatrickofSteele is offline
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I'm not sure if athletes are the best litmus test to evaluate what's a healthy diet, although there's been a large paradigm shift in nutritional intake in cycling/triathlons (sports I follow) where you see athletes focus on more of a "cleaner" eating style rather than large portions of processed foods and sugary laden meals to keep their glycogen stores up.

I'm an advocate of a diet that focuses on low/no processed foods, healthy meats/lean protein with a focus on caloric management. Toss in exercise, keep the junk food to a minimum and you'll most likely end up better off than whatever fad diet or restricted diet/juicing cleanse that a movie is boasting.
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Old 17 October 2017, 07:46
Dogwelder Dogwelder is offline
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I'm just trying to learn a bit, clean up my diet, haven't done anything drastic so far.
Have you considered actually speaking with a nutritionist? I mean......they do go through a lot of schooling to get the title....and it is their field of expertise. Just an idea.

As far as the legitimacy of those documentaries.....understand that they are making an argument....and as such......will omit key points that would refute their position. Just a quick glance at Google and I found this website. While it may not be in your list of documentaries...the ones you listed tend to repeat the same info.

https://bitemywords.com/2012/04/02/food-matters-but-the-film-does-not/

Of course your best bet for science backed sources should come from .gov and .edu. Anyhoo.....good luck in your search for better health.
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Old 17 October 2017, 08:28
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Originally Posted by TerribleTed View Post
Don't put this in medical, put it in humor.

Eating plants reverses cancer???

I guess I dreamed the classes on nutrition, biochemistry, etc, in medical school...

But I'm just in medicine for the money. Just ask everybody else in this hot, dusty place where I currently am.

What are you selling?
x2.

The following is not addressed to Xenophon, but to the general reader.

I usually try to stay out of the Medical-bashing threads, because there is no point in arguing with people who have already decided on an opinion, but I can not let this just pass.

Nutrition is only one part of any balanced mind or body. It has it's role but it is not a panacea.

Certainly doesn't "reverse cancer" or prevent death.

Actually, starvation will cause death and un-balanced dietary intake can contribute to illness.

The grim reaper will claim us all.

But damn, medical school really didn't properly prepare me to treat Stroke, Myocardial Infarction, Sepsis, Trauma, Respiratory distress, Renal failure, Pneumonia, Appendicitis, Leukemia etc... I just needed to know proper nutrition.

As for profit, I wish medical school taught me that. Because, like any other profession, I would really love to maximize my margin. In reality, that is one thing medical school assiduously try to avoid, because profit is less important than doing the right thing. The best treatment is the best, regardless of cost. But medical economics is important, especially since no one wants to pay for this service.

Also, in regards to the statement "all nutrition originates in plants", that is very simplistic.

An herbivore or omnivore can eat veggies all day. But unless they have the gut microflora to digest and break down cellulose and metabolize the nutrients, they will die of starvation.

So in actuality, it is the gut microflora that is a Yuuuuge factor on whether food becomes nutrition.

That is why antibiotics, exercise, nutrition, smoking, alcohol consumption, lifestyle, diseases all contribute to health.

Hey, what do I know, I'm just a grubby, greedy Gyrene.
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Old 17 October 2017, 11:09
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Of course your best bet for science backed sources should come from .gov and .edu. Anyhoo.....good luck in your search for better health.
LOL, riiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhtttttt Because the .gov has ZERO interest in promoting a study? Add to which, of course “higher education” would NEVER promote or change findings to benefit people or corporations that give them grant money. Nope, that would never happen...
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Old 17 October 2017, 13:49
Dogwelder Dogwelder is offline
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LOL, riiiiiiigggggggghhhhhhtttttt Because the .gov has ZERO interest in promoting a study? Add to which, of course “higher education” would NEVER promote or change findings to benefit people or corporations that give them grant money. Nope, that would never happen...
Haha. Touche good sir. You are absolutely right, but the point I was more trying to make was that maybe go to the sources where there is empirical data to support a claim, instead of a blog or an indie documentary. It is certainly harder and harder to know for sure what exactly is "true" nowadays. Between the corruption of so many corporations/institutions, and the slick production of these types of documentaries......no wonder so many are confused.
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Old 17 October 2017, 13:58
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Haha. Touche good sir. You are absolutely right, but the point I was more trying to make was that maybe go to the sources where there is empirical data to support a claim, instead of a blog or an indie documentary. It is certainly harder and harder to know for sure what exactly is "true" nowadays. Between the corruption of so many corporations/institutions, and the slick production of these types of documentaries......no wonder so many are confused.
JAMA, Lancet, Journal for NP's, Biomedical Central etc. Most here know where to go for trusted data.
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Old 18 October 2017, 20:26
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nutritionfacts.org and drmcdougall.com will give you enough information to keep you busy a couple of years. There's a search function on both sites but the forums on McDougall  are easy to miss.
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