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  #41  
Old 4 August 2006, 19:36
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Frog Frog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet
The silence from mr truth is deafening.
You got that right. I recon we know the truth.
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  #42  
Old 5 August 2006, 12:08
Veracity Veracity is offline
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Someone is pissing on your legs and calling it Darkrain

As I said in my first post, I was sent a link to this board by a friend who had been a Hackathorn student. He knew that I am a long time friend of Hacks and asked me for clarification.

My second post was to answer Silverbullets question and to explain something about how to read SF DD214s of the 1971 vintage.

Silverbullet:
"So are you saying he went through the Q course and was awarded an 18 series MOS?"


Veracity:
"I am absolutely NOT saying that Hack attended the Q course or got an 18 MOS during his term of service.

His term of service was from 1966-1971 and both the Q course and the 18 MOS did not exist until the 1980's."

I did not sign on because I had no intention of participating in this list any further. While I have the greatest respect for SEALS, I am not a SEAL, wannabe or otherwise. I was just trying to help keep a friend from being maligned. I'm jumping in one more time, because the moderator seems to be misinterpreting my lack of response.

In my first post, I said that Hacks MOS ends in "S" and TRIP WIRE verified my statement that a 1971 "S" indicates "SF" not support as it does in more recent DD214s. I thought that the issue was settled.

Darkrain responded to my post: admitting that he misread Hacks DD214, that Hack was indeed an E6 as I claimed and not an E2 as he had claimed. In Darkrain's first post he made a big deal out of Hack being in six years and only being an E2. In response to my post, Darkrain admits that he attacked the reputation of a serviceman without even getting the rank straight. Darkrain then made two more mistakes, he ignored what TRIP WIRE and I said about a 1971 SF DD214 "S" meaning "SF" qualified. Darkrain repeated his claim that Hack was not SF qualified.

How about it Darkrain - you say you have Hacks 1971 DD214, the MOS ends with an "S", doesn't it?

Doesn’t this invalidate your claim in both posts that Hack was not SF qualified?

If a document of that period ended in SF - like you want, it would be phony. Is that what it takes to satisfy you?

As to Darkrains last remaining accusation -that Hack was not a small arms weapons specialist, but crew served specialist only. Darkrain doesn't grasp the SF concept of cross training. Hacks DD 214 has a "C" indicating crew served weapons specialist. Please be advised, that in 1971, Hack was a SF weapons specialist, the "C" indicates all weapons up to and including crew served. That is the way it was in SF, even if it was not that way in the Navy.

The Moderator and Silverbullet want my credentials. OK. I am what I said I was, a friend of Ken Hackathorns. I am not ex military. I know something about SF of that era because I worked for LTC Anthony Herbert of "Soldier" fame in a company called Herbert and Associates. I was one of the associates, the in house gun guy/ firearms instructor. I got to know and spend quality time with several extraordinary early SF guys. Many years ago, I introduced LTC Herbert and several other early SF folks whom I admired very much to my friend Ken Hackathorn and they all got along just fine. Herbert added Hack as one of his Associates.

In my profile I said that I have never done anything. This is the only statement made by me that is not absolutely true. I produced a fine son who is presently serving in the Army with a combat MOS, of whom I am very proud. I will relate one other accomplishment. I became friends with Richard L. Childers SGM, E-9, AKA "Blanket Ass". Childers figured prominently in Herbert's book "Soldier". He had been awarded the DSC in Vietnam and retired. He then reupped for one more tour which is the tour mentioned in Herbert's book. Childers retired again, only to be deprived of the 10% pension bonus that is supposed to be awarded to DSC recipients. Seems there was an "unpublished regulation" that the 10% bonus was only awarded to recipients of the CMH and DSC IF they got the citation during their last period of service. Childers had tried for decades to get this fixed and could not. He was told that the regulation didn't impact enough recipients to justify changing regulations. It took me almost a year, but I got it fixed and Childers got the 10% he deserved. That is something.

I know a lot of people, but have few friends because I choose my friends very carefully. I don't like people screwing with my friends. That applies to the government screwing with SGM Childers pension or Darkrain screwing with Ken Hackathorn's reputation.

Hack has earned a superb reputation as a trainer and in that capacity has saved many lives. He deserves better than what he got here.

You cannot unring a bell on the internet. There was no need for Darkrain to jump the gun and post anything that could harm or defame until he was in full possession of the facts.

I can't fault the rest of you for asking follow up questions, and I appreciate those who jumped in with facts instead of speculation.

Darkrain may have the best of intentions, but that does not excuse the fact that he caused undue harm by opening fire on a friendly even though he had plenty of time to verify and get the facts before shooting. Until Darkrain develops more self-control, I wouldn't want to be around him when he is armed with a gun or knife instead of a keyboard.

The moderator uses the word "Deafening". This reminds me of something. If any of you have information on how specific types of amplified electronic earplugs (not muffs) have worked in a military setting, please let me know. I'm getting time urgent requests for this information and cannot find anything. The problem is that in noisy environmnetsd, the issue plugs drown out too much voice communication and the best amplified muffs are uncomfortable for extended periods even under the new MSA helmet and the non electronic sonic plugs only provide about 7 db noise reduction.

Last edited by Veracity; 5 August 2006 at 12:59.
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  #43  
Old 5 August 2006, 14:11
trailrunner78 trailrunner78 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
In my first post, I said that Hacks MOS ends in "S" and TRIP WIRE verified my statement that a 1971 "S" indicates "SF" not support as it does in more recent DD214s.
Yeah, INDICATES SF, does NOT necessarily mean SF QUALIFIED. I will explain below....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
Darkrain then made two more mistakes, he ignored what TRIP WIRE and I said about a 1971 SF DD214 "S" meaning "SF" qualified. Darkrain repeated his claim that Hack was not SF qualified.

How about it Darkrain - you say you have Hacks 1971 DD214, the MOS ends with an "S", doesn't it? Doesn’t this invalidate your claim in both posts that Hack was not SF qualified?
NO, IT DOES NOT. And I will now explain why I have personal knowledge that it does not. You admittedly don't have personal knowledge of anything....

When I came off 3 YEARS of being oversea's in Germany in '81 (excuse me, 2 years 11 months, we wanna be stickler's for accuracy here, don't we....) I went to 12th SF in Arlington Heights, Il. This is a Reserve unit, for those who don't know. (Like you.) I was only there for a few drills, I could not do what I wanted to do within the context of the unit and had my paperwork returned to the Reserve Center. On the Orders, it lists my MOS as 54E1S. This would be NBC Recon Specialist, ATTACHED TO OR ASSIGNED TO AN SF UNIT. (as in HHC, 12th SFG.) It DOES NOT make me SF qualified in any way shape or form, ie. NO Basic Airborne, NO SFQC, and no NBC school either.

But gee, according to YOUR never spent day in the service but met a
few hero's explanation, since I've got a piece of Army issued paper than SAYS "54E1S", I can go around calling myself SF, right? Maybe I can say I was on 12th Grp.'s NBC Recon Team, huh? Sure SOUNDS cool, right? But it would have no basis in FACT, only in paper......

I don't even list this in my profile for very good reason, namely that it would look like I'm trying to pose that I had something to do with SF. I don't BS, which is more than can be said of your buddy Hack, who allowed himself to be represented as a Vietnam SF vet throughout the 80's and early 90's, and don't say he did'nt: I read it in print in Combat Handguns, etc. on more than one occaision. Never saw a correction in a later issue. I guess TECHNICALLY Hackathorn could state that he's a Vietnam ERA (right time period) SF vet (in the sense that he was assigned to a unit) and that would be a "TRUE" statement, huh? Gee, I guess THAT"S what he really said and everyone just misunderstood him, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
I can't fault the rest of you for asking follow up questions, and I appreciate those who jumped in with facts instead of speculation.
So deal with the facts, Jack.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
Darkrain may have the best of intentions, but that does not excuse the fact that he caused undue harm by opening fire on a friendly even though he had plenty of time to verify and get the facts before shooting.
Not really. (and by the way, nice high speed terminology there.... ) He (and you, actually) pretty much established that Hackathorn is not "really" SF qualified, (as in been to QC) never went to 'Nam even though he was in an SF Reserve unit from '66-'71, (!) and in fact never left CONUS in any capacity whatsoever except possibly a long weekend drill in Puerto Rico and that last IS pure speculation.....

Did he even go to ABN school? If he did, that would make him a "candy-striper", as it was known back then. And not necessarily even an MOS qualified one, there were a few guys in 12th Grp who had been to BCT and ABN but no MOS school, never mind QC. This puts wings on their chest and a Green Beret with a candy stripe on their head when they come to drill, BFD...

To me, being in a Reserve unit for 5 years by itself (with no Active Duty time)does'nt mean a whole lot. 2 weeks a year x 5 = 2.5 months, add in a weekend a month x 11 = another 22 days per year. Let's say that he did 2 drills a month sometimes, like the ODA's in 12th Group often did, so call it a month x 5 years. This means he has approx. 7.5 months of military "experience" spread over a 5 year period, excluding ADT (active duty for training) such as BCT. (Give him another 8 weeks for that.) Never had to live it every day, never had to suck up anything like a couple of years away from family, friends, home etc. and do it 24/7/365. And I still can't believe he spent '66-'71 in a Reserve SF unit in ANY capacity and did'nt find a way to deploy. I think that says something also.

Lastly, I think you should hold yourself to your stated desire not to address this again, you look foolish.


Back to my "just an ex-peacetime grunt" hole...

Last edited by trailrunner78; 5 August 2006 at 22:14.
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  #44  
Old 5 August 2006, 17:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
As I said in blah blah blah
You do understand that there are members who posted on this thread that are SF and understand the system much better than you do? If you think darkrain is so off the mark send documents that prove your case to one of them.

You have refuted nothing by the info you have provided and sound like you are being spoon fed anything you post by someone else.

And yes we are sticklers for accuracy when discussing military service and time.
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  #45  
Old 5 August 2006, 22:06
trailrunner78 trailrunner78 is offline
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Sorry SB, I messed up that last post, I was trying to insert my commentary between selected outtakes of his post and it came out looking like it was all his quote, but if you read it with that in mind you can see where I was putting stuff in. I apolgize for any confusion caused by my lack of computer-fu.....

I cleaned that up so it's not so confusing, and I apologize if I stepped in front of anyone with a Flash, only meant to address how it's possible for someone with NOTHING SF (ie. me) to wind up with that 1-Sierra thing on a piece of paper and it mean nothing, just a record keeping/they have to put something down kind of thing......

Last edited by trailrunner78; 5 August 2006 at 22:39.
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  #46  
Old 5 August 2006, 22:56
Greenhat
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Trailrunner,

There is a significant difference between '71 and '84. I'm not going to post the specifics, because I'd rather not give Veracity or others clues for their claims.

Veracity,

To date, no one has actually told us what the MOS on the DD214 is. Nor has anyone, including you, bothered to answer the questions I asked regarding Hack's service. Your entire post was nothing but a waste of space.
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  #47  
Old 6 August 2006, 01:34
trailrunner78 trailrunner78 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
Trailrunner,

There is a significant difference between '71 and '84. I'm not going to post the specifics, because I'd rather not give Veracity or others clues for their claims.
Understood, Sir. Back in my lane.
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  #48  
Old 6 August 2006, 21:13
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TPD1280 TPD1280 is offline
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I do believe that Darkrain also bears some responsibility to this discussion.

He is the one who is calling Hackathorn out. It is on him to provide more than just accusation and then leave things dangling.

He has, or had in his possession a DD214. He too has been asked what the MOS is.

He already demonstrated a major mistake in the rank issue, and made a second while trying to equate the Navy's definition of "Gun Crew" with the Army's definition of "Crew Served".

Now, since being asked what the MOS is, and having had the "S" identifier explained, all of a sudden he too is very silent on the issue.

I'm not saying Hackathorn is innocent of the allegations, I don't have dog in that fight.

But somebody just showing up slinging an accusation had better be right on, or be willing to man up if he's wrong, and damn sure better not walk out in the middle after stirring the pot.

Hackathorn seems to be a big enough celebrity in the gun world, this could affect his livelihood. If you're going to make allegations you'd better have the sack to see them through regardless of the outcome.

I'm sure by now Hackathorn is aware of this thread, it would be nice if he had the stones to log on and speak to his own defense.

JMHO
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  #49  
Old 7 August 2006, 12:21
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Darkrain,

The following is copied from your profile:

Quote:
Was involved with Linebacker I & II when on the Butte
Interestingly, navsource has the Butte not arriving in Vietnam until after both Linebackers were over.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/0527.htm

In fact, according to navsource, the Butte spent about 20 days participating in operations off the coast of Vietnam during the ceasefire in 1973 after Linebacker II ended.

Linebacker was conducted from May to October 1972.
Linebacker II (a.k.a. The Christmas Bombings) was conducted from 18-26 Dec 1972.

Would you care to speak to that?
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  #50  
Old 7 August 2006, 12:51
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Disregard....
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Last edited by CTA; 7 August 2006 at 13:07.
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  #51  
Old 7 August 2006, 13:11
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Yeah, he deleted Rolling Thunder from his creds, but left up the Linebackers.

And it wasn't on the Puget Sound either, she was Atlantic Fleet for her entire service.
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Last edited by TPD1280; 7 August 2006 at 13:16.
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  #52  
Old 7 August 2006, 13:33
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From Darkrains Website:

Quote:
After completing mechanical studies at the United States Navy Command, Chicago, Illinois, he undertook further study at the University of South Vietnam Tonkin Gulf, School of Warfare Republic of South Vietnam. Martin operated with the U.S. Navy 7th fleet off the coast of Vietnam, 1973-74 on the U.S.S. Butte AE27.
(italics mine)

Exactly what schooling was that? Fighting unruly oil burners?

Quote:
Kevin, a Vietnam Veteran, served with the United States Navy Surface Warfare 7th Fleet from 1973-74 serving a 13 month tour. Martin operated n and out of the South China Sea and was personally involved by serving as an engineman on the U.S.S. Butte AE 27 whaleboat with the Underwater Demolition Teams (UDT) mining of Hai Phong Harbor in North Vietnam. He was also engaged in the Eastertide, Linebacker I & II, Rolling Thunder and Operation Endsweep.
Eastertide was a North Vietnamese operation, which provoked Linebacker I.

Endsweep was conducted after the Butte left Vietnam. Endsweep was the removal of the mines from Vietnamese waters. The operation was led by the USS Tripoli, in company with the Inchon and the Ogden.
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Last edited by TPD1280; 7 August 2006 at 13:46.
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  #53  
Old 7 August 2006, 14:24
Sinister Dave Sinister Dave is offline
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So, is this character Hackathorn a Special Forces qualified Soldier or not? Full Q-course qualified, Paper flash, candy stripe, correspondence course, just assigned to a Guard Group and drilled and hung around or what?
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  #54  
Old 7 August 2006, 14:35
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I think we have a pot and a kettle calling eachother names.
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  #55  
Old 7 August 2006, 15:04
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I do not have a dog in this fight and have no clue if Hackathorn is a phony, but if he is than he has managed to fool a man like Larry Vickers into believing that he is.

The two have made public appearances together and recently worked together on H&K's JCP entrant. I suppose that isn't out of the realm of the possibility that a man like Vickers could be fooled by a phony but it would be suprising and Hackathorn's extremely high profile in the gun crowd makes it all but impossible that Vickers (also high profile in the gun crowd) isn't aware of his claims.
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  #56  
Old 7 August 2006, 19:01
Phil306 Phil306 is offline
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I don't think anyone is calling Hackathorn a "phoney." The man, as I said, is highly regarded in the firearms community. I believe the question, which is now indispute, is whether or not Hackathorn embellished his qualifications/training. I have no clue either.

Like you, I have no dog in this fight either. Having said that, please understand, whether or not he was "Q" qualified, or whatever, doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is talking about, in regards to firearms/tactical training.
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  #57  
Old 7 August 2006, 19:31
brewmonkey brewmonkey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
Seems there was an "unpublished regulation" that the 10% bonus was only awarded to recipients of the CMH and DSC IF they got the citation during their last period of service.
That is not quite the way it works. Title 10, USC 3991 covers this and the member must have been awarded the DSC AND have completed 20 years of Federal Active Service. There is no mention of when in their period of service they were awarded the DSC as well they must retire from the service in order to recieve their 10% additional pay.

Medal of Honor winners regardless of their retirement status recieve $100 a month for the rest of their lives.
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  #58  
Old 8 August 2006, 12:21
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Brew,

When they changed the regs allowing for soldiers recalled out of retirement to have their new retired pay based on the "most favorable retirement system in effect at the time of the new retirement", (10 USC 1402) they forgot to include language to incorporate the additional 10% authorized under a previous retirement.

Since it was not addressed, it was not authorized, because in bureaucratese it didn't exist.

It has since been fixed.
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  #59  
Old 8 August 2006, 13:17
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TPD got the DD214, and I've been appraised of what it says. Based on the MOS awarded, and certificates issued from JFK, I'd say that Mr. Hackathorn has the right to claim that he was an SF Soldier.

Admins, can we get rid of Darkrain?
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  #60  
Old 8 August 2006, 14:05
Kurt V Kurt V is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenhat
Admins, can we get rid of Darkrain?
I second this!
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