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Old 11 January 2013, 17:32
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Women being allowed operational roles int he 160th.

The Army times is reporting that women are being screened for operational positions in the 160th with the first female crewmembers coming onboard this summer. I guess change is inevitable in all organizations and when the manning falls low enough that you have slots unfilled you have to look for other candidates.

This should be interesting.
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Old 11 January 2013, 19:30
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Interesting, to say the least.
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Old 11 January 2013, 19:43
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As pilots or?
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Old 11 January 2013, 19:48
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Grab the tail, the other half of this DSK, the ramps, ammo, guns, chains, fuel cans, etc.

Simulate field conditions and put this XSMN in this little bird.

Whatever it's someone elses world now.

Coming next to a Ranger BN near you.

Gotta have female Green PLT. Instructors who've never...Aw Christ on a cracker...

Do they have men fight women in combatives?

They might look better in Ranger panties and a T shirt, or whatever they wear now...

More PC Bullshit, ther's a lot more to the job besides a turning a screw driver and flying.

AHHHHHHHHHHHH!
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Old 11 January 2013, 19:54
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Does this mean SOCNET could eventually have its first female BTDT?
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Old 11 January 2013, 20:06
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Does this mean SOCNET could eventually have its first female BTDT?
Quit pokin the hornet's nest Kid.
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Old 11 January 2013, 20:31
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Most of us know the answer to that question, and I don't have a problem with that reality, or the job that is done.

This is not the same thing. If there were no requirements that were not going to get bent, (tested or otherwise) or others were going to pick up the slack for someone, more power to the female gender going into this arena.

The job is not typical Army Aviation stuff like they do in school from ALSE to airframe.

Guess we'll see the results they want us to. That "Good order and discipline" thing will win the day.
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Old 11 January 2013, 20:31
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Does this mean SOCNET could eventually have its first female BTDT?
What would be really funny is if she asked for you to be banned and it happened...
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Old 11 January 2013, 21:00
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Most of us know the answer to that question, and I don't have a problem with that reality, or the job that is done.

This is not the same thing. If there were no requirements that were not going to get bent, (tested or otherwise) or others were going to pick up the slack for someone, more power to the female gender going into this arena.

The job is not typical Army Aviation stuff like they do in school from ALSE to airframe.

Guess we'll see the results they want us to. That "Good order and discipline" thing will win the day.
True. My intent wasn't to poke a hornet's nest. I was just observing the implications/change to SOCNET if this were to come to pass and they were to become a member is all. Guess it would be strange is all. Things are changing. Just as discussed in other threads regarding women and SOF roles my stance remains the same: standards should never be lowered.
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Old 11 January 2013, 21:40
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I didn't post a link to the original story since it was the army times but yes. This is for female pilots, crew members and maintainers for all platforms. The RCO is heavily quoted in the article saying that all of the standards will be the same.

Oddly enough, I oddly enough I don't for one second doubt that there are women who can do the technical parts of the job. There are already women flying the shit out of helicopters all over and there are some real warriors among them. My issue is more of the logistical side of things. What happens when your FMQ pilot becomes pregnant and you lose her for a year or two? What about maintainers? You can't do a thing with them for a very long time but they still count against your manning numbers. With the organization being critically short already, having "ghost numbers" will only hurt them more. With the optempo the way it is pregnancy will be a huge issue...

Another large area which is important is the physical demands of the job. When a man can't lift a little bird transmission over his head and hold it in place while it's being installed it's because he can't pass a PT test. A woman can score a 300 and not have enough upper body strength to do the same things. Lifting 3K rounds of 7.62 up waist high is challenging for a man but the average female will have an issue with it.

The issue isn't that some women can do the job, it's more than not all can or want to. Once the door is open to women they will be assigned there with no gender restrictions. This will force many women into the role that may not want to be there with no way for the regiment to eliminate them as long as they can meet the basic army standard.
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Old 12 January 2013, 00:14
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Does this mean SOCNET could eventually have its first female BTDT?
I thought that was you?
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Old 12 January 2013, 02:29
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Good bye Hooters Bros.
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Old 12 January 2013, 02:36
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With the optempo the way it is pregnancy will be a huge issue...
I think that this has been discussed before, but men can get long-term injuries / sickness as well. The units seem to survive.

"But all the women will get pregnant" is a chicken-little argument.

Plus, it's not a logical reason to keep them out of a particular role.

The one and only aspect that matters is, can they do the job, meeting the required standards of that job?
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Old 12 January 2013, 07:44
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I never had the 'pleasure' of serving under/with either Hutmacher or Evans - what's their rep w/ the rank and file in the Regiment? I'm kinda curious whether they're truly happy with this change or if they've just been stuck with executing someone else's vision of a perfect world.
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Old 12 January 2013, 09:26
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Nofear-There are basic (minimum) requirements for any job, but SOF requires above and beyond what is normal. You do what needs to be done.

We don't do minimums (mens standards), neither do the men we support.

With RCO's and CAS backing who's going to tell a female she's not qaulified? The Regiment will suffer.

It is what it is.
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Old 12 January 2013, 13:24
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Originally Posted by nofear View Post
I think that this has been discussed before, but men can get long-term injuries / sickness as well. The units seem to survive.

"But all the women will get pregnant" is a chicken-little argument.

Plus, it's not a logical reason to keep them out of a particular role.

The one and only aspect that matters is, can they do the job, meeting the required standards of that job?
As a senior guy who has had females working directly for him in this exact same career field I can tell you that it is a major factor. We can pretend it doesn't exist but that's simply not the case.

The number of guys who sustain long term injuries which means they can't fly are less than the women in the same boat. When a guy can't be on flight status I can still use him for maintenance. When a woman becomes pregnant she can't be used for anything around a helicopter. This is a much larger issue for manning in aviation than people like to believe. Again, I'm a guy who lives this life (on both sides of the coin) everyday and I'm saying it's an issue.

Another component of the suitability is fitness. Anyone who says that SOF skills aren't physically demanding is kidding themselves. When we say that women will meet the same standards we mean that they will pass the APFT like every soldier in the military. Lets look at the push-up scores for males and females. A minimum male passing score for the 17-21 age group is 42 reps in 2 minutes. A minimum female score is 19 reps. A maximum female score is 42 reps for 100 points. How can a woman get a maximum score for doing the minimum male standard? Until we can all agree that the standards are not the same and that just passing a minimum standard is not acceptable for SOF units then we will struggle with mediocrity.

As I said above the women can do the technical parts of the job just fine. It's the long repetitive days loading heavy ammo and fixing heavy helicopter parts which we will struggle with. As a guy who has been both in the TF and in the regular army I can tell you that it is not even close to being the same. There is a reason it took this long for people to agree to this. Now it's more about filling positions than meeting a standard. Until we stop violating the 4 SOF truths this will remain a problem.

Last edited by Little Fix; 12 January 2013 at 13:38.
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Old 12 January 2013, 18:30
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Nofear-There are basic (minimum) requirements for any job, but SOF requires above and beyond what is normal. You do what needs to be done.
I agree 100%. When I said "required standard of the job", that's what I was referring to, as opposed to some official requirement, which may or may not be clear-cut.

I've seen some very vague job descriptions written purposely so that women can "meet" the criteria, while men are somehow found unsuitable without any reason given.
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Old 12 January 2013, 22:09
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The question is how much pressure is on the assessment cadre to allow standards to slip in the name of retention? SOF soldiers cannot be mass produced. Quality over quantity, and the like. I am optimistic that the Community could stand to benefit from said changes, but I also have no experience in the SOAR realm currently, so I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
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Old 12 January 2013, 22:41
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I'm submitting my application.

(Don't worry, the baby factory is out of commission)

I've said it here before, I have no desire to break any glass ceilings. But if the door is open...

(I can only guess that the conversation sounded the same when they opened the door to the Apache community to us vaginal types.)

My measly 2 cents: I've been extremely disappointed in my community as a whole. There are a few amazing individuals that stand out, but there are quite a few whiny babies to my left and right. When the mission is boring, when we're jumping into our 5th bird for the night with an hour left in our window, when weather is legal but looks shitty... these guys give the fuck up.

As a maintenance test pilot, my days are long, my flight time comes .5 at a time, the work is thankless, and I love it. If the opportunity is there to go surround myself with other pilots who still love the mission, and who love supporting the boots on the ground and shooting the bad guy in the face, then I'm going to at least attempt to join them.

If I don't make the cut, and the powers that be don't think I'd be value-added to the team, then I will go back to doing what I do now with the same motivation and pride as always.

Emily
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Old 12 January 2013, 22:43
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I'm pretty sure that no one who is currently in the unit will comment on that. I don't think the assessment will be easier nor will it be the deciding factor. I think this is more of a time will tell situation. Obviously with a pilot/ trial program only the best will come forward. Once the door is open then DA/HRC will assign people at will with no regard for gender differences or desires. This is where the unit will have its real issues based on my experiences.
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