Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Book Reviews

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 3 October 2015, 17:08
DB8541 DB8541 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 675
Xenonburnout:

That is the problem I have incurred from trying to read these reports. Answers are fragmented and unclear, everyone has a different answer and some of them are just theories persuaded by political and lobbyist pressures. I have yet to find an answer from these agencies that cover long term issues past their short term disaster planning. All of the plans require support from other areas of the country to prevent melt downs with fuels, staffing and security.

From your profile you are definitely more educated on this question then I have been from researching for an elusive answer.

So in your opinion, what happens to spent fuel rods left in cooling ponds in a long term (months to years) grid down situation without the proper staff and protocols of maintenance for them?

My opinion 1: The dirty secrete is there is no long term plan past a few weeks of a local disaster the affect one or two reactors. 2: they will eventually over heat boil off the water that is in the ponds and release radiation plumes for years.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 3 October 2015, 17:30
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Midgetologist
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LFOD
Posts: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by B 2/75 View Post
The oil in roasted beans will go rancid over long storage, and you REALLY don't want to drink rancid coffee, even after TEOTWAWKI.

Instead, store dry-roasted coffee (if you can stomach that swill) or green, unroasted beans. Cool, Dark, and Dry is the ticket. Either will be good after many years.

Your choice of stockpiling alcohol is spot-on, and will be worth its weight in gold down the road.
I don't drink but do have a good stockpile.Instant coffee will work for me it's SHTF can't be picky.

On the reactor meltdowns I have read other SHTF books that mention them melting down.Myself if in that situation I would avoid a area with a NPP at all cost.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 3 October 2015, 17:30
Xenonburnout's Avatar
Xenonburnout Xenonburnout is online now
Critical mass
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: the event horizon
Posts: 854
Quote:
Originally Posted by DB8541 View Post
Xenonburnout:

So in your opinion, what happens to spent fuel rods left in cooling ponds in a long term (months to years) grid down situation without the proper staff and protocols of maintenance for them?

My opinion 1: The dirty secrete is there is no long term plan past a few weeks of a local disaster the affect one or two reactors. 2: they will eventually over heat boil off the water that is in the ponds and release radiation plumes for years.
In my opinion you have come to some likely conclusions to your own questions. Again, in my own experience, I have found that we have long had the technological answers to these scenerios but have become locked in political and ideological wastelands.
To directly answer your questions of how much time... this involves how much decay heat, how much spent fuel and how much available water. By spent fuel I am including first and second cycle assemblies in the reactor and not yet in the spent fuel pool. The end result being the same answer... how much decay heat and how much water.
I would like to add that the amount of water is dependent on the ability to power pumps for makeup and cooling. Which leads into the robustness of on/off site power sources. Normal and emergency.
__________________
"There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."-Henry David Thoreau

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Xenonburnout; 3 October 2015 at 17:55.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 3 October 2015, 18:34
Xenonburnout's Avatar
Xenonburnout Xenonburnout is online now
Critical mass
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: the event horizon
Posts: 854
DB8541,
I am not giving the direct answer you are seeking because there are so many variables and factors to consider. I do know that on a loss of grid scenerios that Nuclear Plants are first on the list to get off site power restored to and that the time frame to do so is immediately but no longer than 30 minutes by FERC/NERC standard. Which seems to be a catch 22 if the grid was toasted due to a large scale EMP(electromagnetic pulse) or GMD (geomagnetic disturbance). All Nuclear plants keep vast amounts of storage water tanks/wells and diesel fuel onsite. Is it totally accident proof? Nothing is on this scale of an event. I will say the people who work at these facilities and on the grid take these scenerios very seriously and are asking the same questions while navigating through the political/financial obstacles to find the best options. I personally believe spent fuel storage in lieu of reprocessing is a bad choice.
Again, I apologize for not having the answer you seek which I believe is the fail safe answer to all risk... it simply does not exist... it is currently a gamble of probabilities.
__________________
"There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."-Henry David Thoreau

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 3 October 2015, 20:01
DB8541 DB8541 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 675
Having done a lot of reading and coming to my own timeline conclusion regardless of on site generators, water above 40 feet of the rods and decay heat ratios of new vs older rods I feel that a 4-30 day window is about all we have to get out of an area that has a plant nearby before zirconium ignition occurs. I know the NRC has repeatedly requested our power grid system be updated to handle High voltage events and to replace transformers that can handle the surges from other lines and plants going down at the same time from these events (which is what triggered the 2003 east coast black out). The NRC themselves have I identified the needs of a new updated power grid system and that the Nuke reactors they are responsible for are at a grave risk because of this issue as it effects their own internal plant blackout responses.

My question stems from the fact that to me this is a glaring issue and it is not a main stream discussion within our Government (in open forum) or the people just trying to be prepared for real potential disasters IE; EMP's or Geomagnetic events. This is why I wrote it is the dirty little secrete no one wants to openly talk about for political reasons I am sure. Hell it is not even one of the 15 disasters that DHS was tasked to plan for when it has happened several times in the last 150 years. I just don't get it.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 3 October 2015, 21:20
Xenonburnout's Avatar
Xenonburnout Xenonburnout is online now
Critical mass
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: the event horizon
Posts: 854
It seems you have done more research than most and ask some very hard to answer questions. I suggest if you want to further your own research to check out the Severe Accident Mitigation Guidelines (SAMG's) that the Nuclear Industry has been implementing specific to the design of each facility. These are guidelines to be implemented when all other procedures (normal, abnormal, emergency and functional recovery) have failed to mitigate a design basis accident. Interesting reads. They are called guidelines and not procedures to give flexibility in their application to events not already defined by prior procedures.
__________________
"There are thousands hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."-Henry David Thoreau

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -- Thomas Jefferson
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 3 October 2015, 21:51
B 2/75's Avatar
B 2/75 B 2/75 is offline
Blending In
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Black Mountains
Posts: 9,651
To expand on Xenon 's great post a tad, there are also downwind hazard predictors for each facility, using an "averaged" weather condition unique to that locale. I'm outside of the Oak Ridge fan.
__________________
"To the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee, for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee" Melville / Captain Ahab
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 3 October 2015, 23:21
DB8541 DB8541 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 675
I have looked at those before and I am not within a 1 or 10 mile evacuation range of the Perry 1 Ohio plant but sadly I am within the 50 mile radius and potential plume/fallout fan. The charts show the plume moving just NE of me but as you said those are based off of historical wind patterns in the area. This a very complex issue to figure out. I will try to start figuring out if the rods do burst into zirconium ignition how long will a spent rod burn based on its age and what the plant I live near has stored there based off of a 18-24 month refueling of new rods. I do not have to worry about RADS but inhalants of various chemical fission reactions and contaminants released in to air.

Or maybe I will just move or plan on bugging out. Sorry for high jacking the post, I plan to read the book soon as I just got it in the mail a few days ago.

Last edited by DB8541; 3 October 2015 at 23:32.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 4 October 2015, 05:42
8654maine 8654maine is offline
Another pool cleaner
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,537
In case folks want to know their nuclear fallout radius, here's a website that can help you calculate your distance

It's from the Natural Resources Defense Council.

I'm >50miles away. But, you never know.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 4 October 2015, 08:45
RGR.Montcalm's Avatar
RGR.Montcalm RGR.Montcalm is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Clearing fields of fire
Posts: 10,287
Read the book on Kindle- pretty predictable but very entertaining. Did give me a few more things to think about.

Let's hope whoever makes it to Raven Rock isn't a fucktard...
__________________
Shallow men believe in luck; strong men believe in cause and effect
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 4 October 2015, 10:47
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Midgetologist
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LFOD
Posts: 4,581
Thoughts on what was done to Shitcago?
I could see doing that with the amount of bandits and not damage the railyards.

I'm trying not to do spoilers.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 4 October 2015, 11:20
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 9,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPC View Post
Thoughts on what was done to Shitcago?
I could see doing that with the amount of bandits and not damage the railyards.

I'm trying not to do spoilers.
I wish we would do that now.

I could see Chicago going that way. Look at the demographics. Things go south, the only ones with the guns will be the lawless gang bangers. The gangs will take control. The police cannot control them now, you think they will when people go without food and water after a couple of months? And just like in the first book, a massive migration as well out of the city into surrounding areas/farmland/small communities looking for food.

Of course, as per the situation you are describing - well that was an indiction America was no longer. When you do that to one of your own cities - it is over.

But, history has shown us many times the military and police will turn on it's own citizens. Happens in times of severe economic collapse, parties or fanatical leaders seeking power, political correctiveness (i.e. Chinese cultural revolution), ethnic genocide, times of famine or disasters, etc.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 4 October 2015, 14:35
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Midgetologist
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LFOD
Posts: 4,581
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
I wish we would do that now.

I could see Chicago going that way. Look at the demographics. Things go south, the only ones with the guns will be the lawless gang bangers. The gangs will take control. The police cannot control them now, you think they will when people go without food and water after a couple of months? And just like in the first book, a massive migration as well out of the city into surrounding areas/farmland/small communities looking for food.

Of course, as per the situation you are describing - well that was an indiction America was no longer. When you do that to one of your own cities - it is over.

But, history has shown us many times the military and police will turn on it's own citizens. Happens in times of severe economic collapse, parties or fanatical leaders seeking power, political correctiveness (i.e. Chinese cultural revolution), ethnic genocide, times of famine or disasters, etc.
All valid points LP.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 9 October 2015, 15:43
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Midgetologist
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LFOD
Posts: 4,581
My one gripe was about the railroads and getting steam engines running.

When I had my Canadian "A" card.I was operating Locomotives from the early 60's.That had fuses and such that shouldn't be affected by a EMP.The newer AC traction locomotives with the electronics yes.
Railroads tend to run Locomotives and rolling stock until it falls apart.

On CTC being down,all switches can be lined manually.Sub-divisions would have to run on Dark territory rules.I have seen CTC go down due to power failures and trains could still run.

The only steam shop I know of is Union Pacific's in WY.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!

Last edited by GPC; 9 October 2015 at 16:00. Reason: More info.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 9 October 2015, 15:47
SOTB's Avatar
SOTB SOTB is offline
Minus one, but more symmetrical....
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Clorox'ing the gene pool....
Posts: 33,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPC
That had fuses and such that shouldn't be affected by a EMP.The newer AC traction locomotives with the electronics yes.
I think the jury is way out still on what will be affected by an EMP and what won't be. And then, are there any cascading effects that while the equipment might not have been damaged, equipment it requires was. Etc., etc., etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPC
On CTC being down,all switches can be lined manually.Sub-divisions would have to run on Dark territory rules.I have seen CTC go down due to power failures and trains could still run.
Ditto. I worked for a major RR for about 3 yrs -- we ran shit all the time per Dark Territory rules....
__________________
Losing faith in humanity, one assclown at a time....
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 00:19.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET