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Old 19 June 2016, 18:55
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Afghanistan thoughts & opinions

I've been contemplating doing a strict thread on this for various reasons. But decided too anyway.

So my thoughts with talking to various groups in Afghanistan. I wont give sources but the whole the "terrorists"(many pashtu n tribes are nationalist before Islamist) what is every ones thoughts in how the coalition has addressed the nationalism. Helmand, paktia, nuristan etc is predominantly pashtu n nationalists. Do you think declaring these tribal leaders terrorists has hurt or helped the cause.

I will lead off with the hiqqani network, a tribeally run dominated tribe based on Islam & nationalism, in the past were Islamic, but fought on nationalistic grounds. We killed there leader yet it strengthened their resolve.


My question is, is there a better way then targeted airstrikes to bring about change. And to engage these tribes

What's your opinion on satisfying actual local tribes needs outside of US regs?
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Old 19 June 2016, 19:11
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I'm not sure you or any anybody else for that matter can handle my opinions regarding Afghanistan.
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Old 19 June 2016, 19:16
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Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
I'm not sure you or any anybody else for that matter can handle my opinions regarding Afghanistan.
There are probably more people than you think that think the same way. It may simply take you too long to put it to words.
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Old 19 June 2016, 20:48
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The thing is, we have for years called both nationalists and extremists the same. But there is a difference. While many nationalists are Islamic, they are not pro Taliban. It boils down to nationalism & extremism. One could argue the original Taliban group is 50/50 between nationalism and Islamist ideology.

Obviously targeted airstrikes are not working what should we do in return? How should we reign in on Pakistan? The balochs etc. Again im just getting the full on ground picture(id hope the Intel guys have better info) but it really does look like the insurgency as far as Taliban wide is being supported not by extremism but nationalism amonst the waziristan/baloch tribes
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Old 19 June 2016, 21:18
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Nukes.
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Old 19 June 2016, 21:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post
The thing is, we have for years called both nationalists and extremists the same. But there is a difference. While many nationalists are Islamic, they are not pro Taliban. It boils down to nationalism & extremism. One could argue the original Taliban group is 50/50 between nationalism and Islamist ideology.

Obviously targeted airstrikes are not working what should we do in return? How should we reign in on Pakistan? The balochs etc. Again im just getting the full on ground picture(id hope the Intel guys have better info) but it really does look like the insurgency as far as Taliban wide is being supported not by extremism but nationalism amonst the waziristan/baloch tribes
I agree.
And based on not only the situation on the ground but perhaps more importantly on our capabilities, I concur with SB
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Old 19 June 2016, 21:43
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No matter their motivations, nationalism or extremism, they are still savages. It has been proven throughout the centuries, and the many times Christians have gone to battle against Muslims, that the only way to defeat them is by giving them back ten-fold the only thing they understand ...... violence.

Until we have the will to do this, we will not defeat them.
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Old 19 June 2016, 21:54
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Fuck Afghanistan and everybody in it. That's my thoughts.
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Old 20 June 2016, 00:30
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The easiest thing would have been to have won the war. We had to work very hard to lose the war. We repeatedly did the hard, stupid thing instead of the easy, smart thing. It would have been too easy to follow our own doctrine, pay attention to history, learn from past mistakes, and win.

People often ask me what winning would look like, and I tell them winning could have looked any number of ways. but losing looks like exactly what we are doing now.
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Old 20 June 2016, 13:52
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Sure they are all savages. The question is why do we care? We care because 1 group of Afghan savages had Arab friends that convinced other Arabs to fly planes into buildings in NY and DC.

Instead of killing those responsible, and their protectors, and then walking away with some savage in charge that would kill our enemies for us, for minimal cost, we half-assed tried to civilize them without rooting out their savagery, by announcing that they were humans just like us. The grown up, policy wonk equivalent of covering our eyes and announcing that we can't be seen.

For the money we've spent in a. Losing cause, we could probably have ensured security here for 75-100 years, with no human casualties. It would be ugly...it would look like Razziq in Kandahar, Noor in Balkh and Dostum in Sheberghan, but what do we care?
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Old 20 June 2016, 14:04
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Dostum was a crazy SOB. Fuck Afghanistan. If we go back, I say we go on a Crusade sanctioned by the Pope. Very few ROEs, as many assets to support the ground fight as possible, and let the grunts go to work.

Seriously that place sucks dick!
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Old 20 June 2016, 15:17
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Nukes would be necessary now, but in late 2001 we could have used wingtip-to-wingtip bomber sorties, on the order of 2/3rds of the strategic fleet per day, dropping MASSIVE Arc Light missions one after another, three times a day, each sortie followed by C130s and 17's dropping the last of the BLU-82s and then GBU-43B MOABs.

After six months of aerial campaigning, we could have simply declared victory and gone home, the 911 punishment having been dealt out.
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Old 20 June 2016, 16:48
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If, a big IF, on September 12th, 2001 we had dropped low yield nukes on Kandahar, J-Bad, Zhawar Kili and Tora Bora no one would've batted an eye. It also would have sent a message to Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.. to reign in the savages and stop playing fucking games.
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Old 20 June 2016, 17:30
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Imperial hubris.
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Old 20 June 2016, 22:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WGH0922 View Post
If, a big IF, on September 12th, 2001 we had dropped low yield nukes on Kandahar, J-Bad, Zhawar Kili and Tora Bora no one would've batted an eye. It also would have sent a message to Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.. to reign in the savages and stop playing fucking games.
If you are going to do something, do it right. If we're discussing not playing games, don't go low yield. If we're making a statement, then make a freaking statement. I'm almost to the point of thinking that any problem fixable with a half megaton W88 from a distance is a problem that should not involve sacrificing our young men's lives instead.
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Old 21 June 2016, 03:19
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A clearly articulated desired end state would have been a nice way to start.
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Old 26 June 2016, 23:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Nukes.
I read through all the replies and ^^^this^^^ sums up my thoughts exactly.
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Old 27 June 2016, 07:45
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We started to lose when we started setting up hescos

William T Sherman said in a letter to Henry Halleck, "We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war."

...but we have political leadership that doesn't see this conflict in terms of "winning"

We have very few leaders including in the military that have no idea what that means. Besides, how can you fight a hard war when your priority is rewriting uniform regulations to accmodate trannies?
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Old 27 June 2016, 10:24
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Originally Posted by Billy L-bach View Post
William T Sherman said in a letter to Henry Halleck, "We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war."
Funny how history repeats itself, unfortunate that we no longer have the fortitude to respond appropriately.

When the opposition in AF and IZ faced our overwhelming firepower which they could not match conventionally, they wisely chose fight us asymmetrically. A whole bunch of people who should have known better chose to label that tactical shift on the enemy's part as victory for us.

During the hard middle years of the wars in AF and IZ, the Petraeus clones used to like to draw parallels to post-WW2 Germany and Japan, advocating patience for what they said would be a slow but successful rebuilding of Iraq and Afghanistan. They either ignored or were unaware of the fact that the enemies in Germany and Japan surrendered, and the enemies in AF and IZ did not.
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Old 27 June 2016, 11:00
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Originally Posted by Billy L-bach View Post
We started to lose when we started setting up hescos ..
That is a continuing problem. The "War" would not have been nearly as financially profitable had we only let SOF and OGA teams inside Afghanistan.
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