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  #41  
Old 15 March 2017, 06:57
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Originally Posted by Paul85 View Post
As a son of two qualified teachers I often take a peek at discussions about education snd school systems.

Two things came to my mind after reading that article:

1) Somebody forgot that teachers should teach, not engage in weird politically correct ideas.

2) You can pull any kind of s... off nowadays if you use "diversity" "equality" and "gender" as your shield and banner.

Teachers, please. Get your heads back on your shoulders. Stop fearing that political correctness BS and that it might wreck your career. Just do your jobs.
I agree with everything you wrote, but on that last point what tends to happen is that teachers will be forced to go through the motions of the politically correct bs. Behind their closed classroom door they can get away with actual teaching of what matters as long as nobody is watching, but in the end the paperwork must reflect that they did as required instead of doing as they should. That is a commonly understood arrangement that you will never see publicly confirmed because it is in nobody's best interest to do the right thing except the students' and everyone knows it. If all the good teachers "wreck their careers" by walking away or getting themselves fired, all that will be left of the public education system will be the very political indoctrination system you don't want. In some places in our country that has already happened, and the result is what has you spun up already.
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  #42  
Old 15 March 2017, 07:32
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but in the end the paperwork must reflect that they did as required instead of doing as they should
Yes, I know that it's always "give back to Ceasar what's Ceasars" etc. IMHO the problem is in reaching the pivot point, so to speak, where the official paperwork outweighs the duties.

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Behind their closed classroom door they can get away with actual teaching of what matters as long as nobody is watching
Ha, it works only when students don't get a bright idea of recording what teacher says/does and then going to the media with a fancy story of their own. IMO teachers fear students now more than the other way around.
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  #43  
Old 15 March 2017, 08:34
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Ha, it works only when students don't get a bright idea of recording what teacher says/does and then going to the media with a fancy story of their own. IMO teachers fear students now more than the other way around.
Today's leaders of the Democratic Party and the major teacher unions were raised on the notion that Chairman Mao's "cultural revolution" was a good thing.
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  #44  
Old 15 March 2017, 08:41
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IMO teachers fear students now more than the other way around
That's truth right there. Both my parents were career teachers. They both loved it. Lived it. Believed in it. Mom ran a head start program and loved it up until the day she retired. Dad taught high school English. By the end he was bitter. Primarily because any time there was a discipline issue, it usually came back on the teacher. I honestly think he would have taught till the day he died. He loved it that much, but it beat him down there at the end.
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  #45  
Old 15 March 2017, 08:42
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IMO, the best thing that could possibly happen for education in this country would be to get rid of three things.

The Dept of Education (Let the states handle their own schools)
Teachers Unions
Tenure

Just eliminating those three things would set education back on the right track in this country.
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  #46  
Old 15 March 2017, 08:51
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
IMO, the best thing that could possibly happen for education in this country would be to get rid of three things.

The Dept of Education (Let the states handle their own schools)
Teachers Unions
Tenure

Just eliminating those three things would set education back on the right track in this country.
Concur.

The only thing the Dept of Ed should be left with is servicing student loans and administering any grants related to Education (both of which they do pretty well).

Any Ed "policy" and whatnot should go.
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  #47  
Old 15 March 2017, 09:05
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Concur.

The only thing the Dept of Ed should be left with is servicing student loans and administering any grants related to Education (both of which they do pretty well).

Any Ed "policy" and whatnot should go.
Do they even deal with loans anymore? I thought they were all sold to private lenders?
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  #48  
Old 15 March 2017, 09:06
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Originally Posted by KidA View Post
Concur.

The only thing the Dept of Ed should be left with is servicing student loans and administering any grants related to Education (both of which they do pretty well).

Any Ed "policy" and whatnot should go.
Get rid of all student loans so colleges can go back to costing what the market will bear. In her senior year of college, my daughter went to her advisor to see about getting a scholarship or grant from the school to help with the cost and was told "well just go borrow more money".

What grants? Why can't every school district fund itself at the level it needs to teach its kids? Why is the federal government collecting tax dollars, then passing them out to schools or individuals? Cut out the federal middle men and have the school districts tax at the level it needs to fund its schools.

The remains of the DoE should be creating national standards for education and certification of schools. Everything else is needless.
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  #49  
Old 15 March 2017, 09:14
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
The remains of the DoE should be creating national standards for education and certification of schools. Everything else is needless.
Didn't DoE give us common core as the national standard? Fuck that, let's go back to states controlling their own standards.
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  #50  
Old 15 March 2017, 09:31
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post


The remains of the DoE should be creating national standards for education and certification of schools. Everything else is needless.
That's the one thing Ed does wrong and should get out of. States have their own standards and their own Departments of Education.

There are all manner of Grants - way too much to go into here, like Pell Grants, or grants funded by philanthropists (not just the Govt) and administered by the Dept.

Here are some

The one thing the Dept does wrong is the "national standards" thing, which got us into textbook testing and putting tax dollars into textbook and test companies on a crony basis.
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  #51  
Old 15 March 2017, 15:42
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
Why can't every school district fund itself at the level it needs to teach its kids? Why is the federal government collecting tax dollars, then passing them out to schools or individuals? Cut out the federal middle men and have the school districts tax at the level it needs to fund its schools.

The remains of the DoE should be creating national standards for education and certification of schools. Everything else is needless.
Not always possible because of income levels in various areas, or because of how local and state laws are written. Or, like often happens, because people want to spend other people's money on their little shitheads and not their own.

Washington State is a great example of all of the above.
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  #52  
Old 15 March 2017, 16:28
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
IMO, the best thing that could possibly happen for education in this country would be to get rid of three things.

The Dept of Education (Let the states handle their own schools)
Teachers Unions
Tenure

Just eliminating those three things would set education back on the right track in this country.
I agree with 2 of the 3. DoE should go. The entire concept of tenure baffles and disgusts me.

Regarding Unions: while I am not pro-union across the board, I do have two family members who are teachers and the amount of money they make for what they do is appalling. If there was no union, it could be far worse.

However, I understand the logic that if the DoE is eliminated and education is handled locally, then perhaps this situation could change. I believe part of the education crisis - K-12 - is because of the low pay most teachers have to accept. "You get what you pay for" is usually true, and low paying jobs will attract the commensurate level of talent. I believe teachers (for the most part) should be paid better. They should also be held accountable and evaluated for performance like most categories of employees. There does not appear to be an effective method to do that, unfortunately. Which I know is a reason to get rid of the unions... I will admit my opinion on the unions is likely biased because of the family ties.
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  #53  
Old 15 March 2017, 16:44
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So just thinking out loud here, what if the DoE was eliminated and "The Blob" (aka the federal teachers union) was dismantled in such a way that only allowed for, at most, individual unions contained to individual schools. None of this entrenched shitty teachers who you can't fire nonsense.

Furthermore, if schools were simply returned to the private sector and weren't funded via state or federal levels, but perhaps through precinct or town revenue.......would not control of those schools ---- specifically, what they are teaching and the overall quality thereof ---- be returned mostly to those people who are footing the bill and whose children it is impacting?

And yeah, "poor" neighborhoods would have shitty funding, blah blah. You're never going to get "equal schools" in that regard. The obscene amounts of funds thrown at shit schools that stay shit schools I think proves that. But I think return of the curriculums and testing standards to the local level is paramount to restoring the quality of education.
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  #54  
Old 15 March 2017, 16:58
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DD - I think dismantling the federal union would be a "good thing". Or - any other path that allowed teachers to be objectively evaluated and compensated, union or not.

And while I very much support schools being returned to private sector, I think the chances of that happening are very slim. Too much water under the bridge.

I also think standardized testing and textbooks have to go away. Even if DoE does not. That approach is killing real education. You get what you metric...
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  #55  
Old 15 March 2017, 20:58
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So that begs the question, why are teachers so underpaid? An honest answer to that question will answer a lot of other questions as well.
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In the fell clutch of circumstance
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Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
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I am the captain of my soul.
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  #56  
Old 15 March 2017, 21:46
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looking at the education statistics, and the social micreants that our schools are turning out, it doesnt look like public school teachers are underpaid at all - in fact, American should be seeking a refund
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  #57  
Old 15 March 2017, 22:21
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The world would be a better place if all political discussion was taken out of the schools, and political education left to the parents.

Wanna talk politics in school? Quit and become a politician, that way you can address adults who can vote, and not melt the minds of children with your drivel.

Teachers should be merit based paid. My wife would make a killing. Those useless slugs she works with would shrivel up and die.

Also, teaching should go back to teaching, and not catering to every student that hasn't the desire to learn. Problem child? Behaviorially challenged? GTFO so the kids who want to learn can do so. Make our classrooms a place of learning again, as opposed to babysitting services.
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  #58  
Old 15 March 2017, 22:23
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Originally Posted by grog18b View Post
The world would be a better place if all political discussion was taken out of the schools, and political education left to the parents.

Wanna talk politics in school? Quit and become a politician, that way you can address adults who can vote, and not melt the minds of children with your drivel.

Teachers should be merit based paid. My wife would make a killing. Those useless slugs she works with would shrivel up and die.

Also, teaching should go back to teaching, and not catering to every student that hasn't the desire to learn. Problem child? Behaviorially challenged? GTFO so the kids who want to learn can do so. Make our classrooms a place of learning again, as opposed to babysitting services.
Very well said, Brother! Very well indeed!
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  #59  
Old 15 March 2017, 22:34
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Agreed. We had to deal with this back in November. The day after the election, my son's 4th grade teacher felt it was appropriate to come into the classroom, make a slew of negative remarks about then-POTUS-Elect Trump and mock him in front of the class. Several complaints were promptly lodged with the principal-who is an awesome, stand-up guy and VERY pro-US and pro-mil. Still, this moron should've have enough common sense to realize that wasn't appropriate.

I used it as an opportunity to talk to my son about the different view points and explain why I was completely opposed to his teacher's opinion (and may have suggested I thought he was a jackass) and what my personal beliefs are on the topic. And yes, I did make sure to tell him he each person should evaluate it on their own and make their own decisions.
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  #60  
Old 16 March 2017, 04:45
Paul85 Paul85 is online now
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Also, teaching should go back to teaching, and not catering to every student that hasn't the desire to learn.
Thats the point I was making. It's not that the school should adjust to the students, students HAVE TO adjust to the school. That's what school is for - to shape young minds, not to conform to their every whim because as we all know, young mind is capable of quite extraordinary and totally wrong ideas that need to be shaped up pronto lest they cause that very mind to become socially unfit, lazy, or even deviated.

Sharky put up a question about pay. Everywhere in the world there are great teachers who are underpaid, teachers that are paid relatively well, and total slackers who get paid huge wads of money. And I don't know how it's in the U.S. but in Poland there's a state-approved curriculum for every type of classes, math, biology language you name it, that every teacher must adhere to and realize each and every step of it to get paid. There is also a fixed amount of hours allocated for every teacher to be spent on classes. I guess that something akin to this is also in use in the U.S.
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