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  #61  
Old 16 March 2017, 05:08
Look. Don'tTouch. Look. Don'tTouch. is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul85 View Post
It's not that the school should adjust to the students, students HAVE TO adjust to the school.
There are fruitcakes that think bosses have to adjust to the workers as well.

The agenda starts at a young age. You are rewarded for existing, even if your existence is shit and causes nothing but shit for everyone that ever crosses your path. Participation trophy-fed liberals feel entitled to succeed, and the world must adjust to suit them.
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  #62  
Old 16 March 2017, 07:19
82Redleg 82Redleg is offline
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And I don't know how it's in the U.S. but in Poland there's a state-approved curriculum for every type of classes, math, biology language you name it, that every teacher must adhere to and realize each and every step of it to get paid. There is also a fixed amount of hours allocated for every teacher to be spent on classes. I guess that something akin to this is also in use in the U.S.
Pretty much nothing could be further from the truth.

There is no centrally approved curriculum in the US. There are some national "standards" which are pretty much unenforceable guidelines. The states are free to set their own curricula, and there are varying levels of that across the 50 states and various other entities. Teacher performance is pretty much disconnected from teacher pay, with the relatively minor exception of some standardized testing. Mostly, once a teacher gets tenure (generally ~3years, from my understanding, although it will vary), then the unions will protect that teacher no matter how outrageous the violations. And they'll continue to get raises based on longevity and little else, although that may vary across states and even school districts. Finally, there is no "fixed amount of hours" for anything. At best, you get a set of course requirements for graduation- for example, NYS 20+years ago required 4 years of English, 4 years of social studies (mostly history, but also economics and gov't), 2 years of math, 2 years of science, and a total of 14 (IIRC) credits to graduate- so you had to take two more classes in science of math, but that was a choice and could be a total of 2 science and 4 math, 3 of each, or 4 science and 2 math. There may have been some others. The way to fill these requirements varied. I took 4 math up to pre-calculus, and 3 science including physics. Some people got away with "business math" (simplified accounting, little more than how to balance a check book and calculate interest) and "general science" (a little bit of physics and chemistry). But that is one snapshot in time- there are AT LEAST 50variations, and they evolve over time.
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  #63  
Old 16 March 2017, 08:34
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I ask again....why are teachers underpaid?

Is there a difference between pay rates for teachers in public schools versus private/charter/magnet schools? I know for a fact that there is a lot more of this thing called accountability in those private/charter/magnet schools, and to my knowledge no union presence.

I also know that in the charter school that has been established where I grew up in Louisiana, parents must sign a waiver allowing the school to administer corporal punishment as they deem fit. No ass-whipping waiver, your kid doesn't go to school there. Shockingly, as a result, the kids tend to be well-behaved across the board and there are very few instances of corporal punishment needing to be used. Students who were diagnosed as ADD and fed Ritalyn at other schools seem to do just fine there without the drugs. They have these cool new concepts called recess and PE that allows kids to burn off excess energy. It's a breakthrough concept. There is a minimum GPA required to play sports or any other recreational activity. Over 95% of graduates who want to go on to college are accepted.

Teachers who don't perform and teach effectively are fired out of hand. They are randomly monitored by school officials to insure that they are effective, and they are also judged by how much their students actually learn and retain. The teachers are also paid significantly better than their peers who work in public schools.

As a result, there is a huge push every year by thousands of parents whose kids are in public school to get their kids admitted to the charter school. Most are denied because there just isn't room. This school started out in 2008 as a group of portable storage buildings purchased by parents who decided enough is enough. Last year they built a new facility.
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  #64  
Old 16 March 2017, 08:36
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Today...it looks like this.
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Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
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  #65  
Old 16 March 2017, 08:58
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Sharky, your example is a perfect illustration to the problem.

Education, like so many other endeavors can be approached in various ways.

IMHO, the best way is to strive to excel...by building upon the previous foundation and laying new groundwork. Always moving up and out. Sort of like construction.

The current crop is the reverse. It is to level the playing field and cater to the lowest common denominator. Excelling is deemed dangerous because it upsets the feeble and mediocre.

This attitude pervades the teacher, administrators, parents and students.

I see this in education, medicine, military, etc...

It's like watching construction, but in reverse.
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  #66  
Old 16 March 2017, 09:25
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Sharky's example is why, if I ever find this world worthy enough to be graced by a continuation of my genetic lineage (), I am seriously thinking about doing one of those home-school co-op programs, etc. Public school nowadays is a form of child abuse.
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  #67  
Old 16 March 2017, 11:49
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The best teachers out there will present interesting arguments for both sides of any topic, prompting the students to think it through and articulate & debate the issues....and at the end of the day, the students will have no idea of the political affiliation of the instructors.
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  #68  
Old 16 March 2017, 11:58
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
I ask again....why are teachers underpaid?
Define underpaid.

Here's the payscale in my town.

Keep in mind this is for nine months' work with summers off....
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  #69  
Old 16 March 2017, 12:55
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Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Define underpaid.

Here's the payscale in my town.

Keep in mind this is for nine months' work with summers off....


Looks pretty decent to me. But, all we ever hear about teachers is how underpaid and underappreciated they are. I'm sure there is a salary variance depending on geography/tax base etc. But my question is more to the point of why they are underpaid, if it's as true as its made out to be.


I have several theories that feed off of each other: 1) local governments do not put schools/education anywhere near the top of the priority list of funding; 2) Teaching is a profession, professions by definition have standards that are enforced by peers, but in teaching the standards have sunk so low to qualify that you can't justify the higher salary; 3) The standards of the profession, even as low as they have become, are not enforced because of the Teachers Unions, political correctness, EEO and fear of litigation; 4) Most parents are apathetic about the true quality of their child's education, meaning if they are in school and getting good grades then everything must be okay.

I could keep going but you get the gist. Answering that question opens up a great big can of worms in the form of many other questions ranging from local governments to what our society has devolved to, to how involved parents are in their local school system.
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Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul.
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  #70  
Old 16 March 2017, 13:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
Sharky, your example is a perfect illustration to the problem.

Education, like so many other endeavors can be approached in various ways.

IMHO, the best way is to strive to excel...by building upon the previous foundation and laying new groundwork. Always moving up and out. Sort of like construction.

The current crop is the reverse. It is to level the playing field and cater to the lowest common denominator. Excelling is deemed dangerous because it upsets the feeble and mediocre.

This attitude pervades the teacher, administrators, parents and students.

I see this in education, medicine, military, etc...

It's like watching construction, but in reverse.

People where I am from tend to cut through the bullshit. They saw that the problem was never ever going to be fixed through the local or state government, so they took the initiative, invested wisely (teachers over facilities) and created their own school. They managed their very little seed money wisely, which enabled them to build the facility you see within 8 years. The local government hates it because it shows them for exactly what they are.


Bottom line is, if the government (local, state or federal) gets involved, they will most likely fuck it up. But it can be fixed with no government involvement. It just takes citizens willing to invest and who put their children's future at the top of the priority list where it belongs.
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Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul.
-Invictus
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  #71  
Old 16 March 2017, 13:13
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I'm interested to hear how the local govt is now trying to destroy that place now. I'm sure they screeched and moaned to the local permitting officials and wanted to stop them getting approvals to build.......

Because you KNOW they are.
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  #72  
Old 16 March 2017, 13:23
Shark0311 Shark0311 is offline
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The median pay in the US was $36,200 in 2015. The median teachers salary (HS) was $56,200 in 2015.

In my district a new 2nd grade teacher makes $40,000; teachers with 20+ years of experience teaching 2nd grade make $110,000. There is no discernible difference between the education that either is providing. This year they fired 10 of the lowest paid teachers (who were fantastic educators) and doubled the class size due to budget issues.
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  #73  
Old 16 March 2017, 13:27
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Here's an example the other direction....


Small school system about 5 miles outside of a town of about 50K people. The small school system is in an area where most people are white, educated, not rich by any stretch but make a decent living. Kids in the school system are obviously mostly white. There are some black kids in the system, but their parents also fit the above description for the most part. This small school system is the #1 school system in the state in Academics.

Meanwhile, 5 miles away, the town of 50K people has it's own school system. Multiple elementary and middle schools but only one high school for everyone. This school system is probably 50% black. There are drugs on campus, gang activity, daily fights, teachers assaulted etc. Cops are there every day.

Someone complains that the small school system, the #1 academic school in the state, is under-represented by black students. So, the state gets involved and tells the large school system that the state will pay for them to bus some of their black students the 5 miles to the small school system. The large school even gets to choose which black students they want to send. So, the large school obviously decides to get rid of the worst of the worst of their problem children.

The small school is informed that they have to accept these new students and all hell breaks loose in the small community. The state tells the small school that they will accept the additional black students or lose all state funding. After the school board met with the parents, the small school told the state to go pound sand and keep their money. The parents of the community will fund the school's operation. Local businesses also agreed to assist with the funding, some of them large businesses.

In the end, the state backed down and scrapped the plan because they didnt want the bad press of the small school board and the local community calling their bluff and telling the state to go fuck themselves. But it shows you what the government is capable of if it is allowed to.

My son graduated from that small school.
__________________
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul.
-Invictus
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  #74  
Old 16 March 2017, 13:58
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usmc_3m usmc_3m is offline
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I checked in with my family members before responding any further so I don't step on my dick.
The one family member works in a State authorized charter school. It receives some fed and local grant money. Her pay is nowhere near the pay scale of the neighboring public school systems - on the low end. That surprised me. She pays for many of the materials in her classes. She loves her job, though and can't think of doing anything else.
The other family member works in the public school system. Has an MA and has worked there for about 8 years. The maximum he can earn in his district - i.e. PhD and 20+ years is 97k. Entry level is about 40k. I checked the surrounding districts and pretty similar - with one having a max of 104k.

Those numbers may look good. But in 2017, six figures aint what it used to be. And it takes a long time to get there. On the other hand, it's not horrible either.

The other topics that have been raised in this thread are big problems. Politics, discipline and accountability. Both of the family members I mention here are passionate about their job and want to make a difference, but are often prevented from doing what they know to be right because of the administrators. From my dialog with them - in their opinion - the administrators are the biggest culprits. They set the (lack of) standards and enforce them. I wonder what would happen if more administrators stood up the .gov reps? Assuming they wanted to...
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  #75  
Old 16 March 2017, 14:17
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
So, the large school obviously decides to get rid of the worst of the worst of their problem children.
Reminds me of the opening narrative of Scarface detailing how Castro just dumped out all his prisons into Miami.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usmc_3m View Post
The one family member works in a State authorized charter school. It receives some fed and local grant money. Her pay is nowhere near the pay scale of the neighboring public school systems - on the low end. That surprised me. She pays for many of the materials in her classes. She loves her job, though and can't think of doing anything else.
The other family member works in the public school system. Has an MA and has worked there for about 8 years. The maximum he can earn in his district - i.e. PhD and 20+ years is 97k. Entry level is about 40k. I checked the surrounding districts and pretty similar - with one having a max of 104k.

Those numbers may look good. But in 2017, six figures aint what it used to be. And it takes a long time to get there. On the other hand, it's not horrible either.

The other topics that have been raised in this thread are big problems. Politics, discipline and accountability. Both of the family members I mention here are passionate about their job and want to make a difference, but are often prevented from doing what they know to be right because of the administrators. From my dialog with them - in their opinion - the administrators are the biggest culprits. They set the (lack of) standards and enforce them. I wonder what would happen if more administrators stood up the .gov reps? Assuming they wanted to...
Sounds about like what the mother of a friend of mine has said. She originally worked for the public school system for about 12 years. Said there were so many teachers that get into it because they "love the job and think they will make a difference". Then about 5 years into it, with feral child after feral criminal child preventing them from teaching, administrators with absolutely no desire or will to change anything, and countless other examples of graft and waste.......most bright eyed and motivated teachers say "screw it" and pack their bags. The ones that stay seem to turn into these useless sacks of shit that are just in it for the money and the guaranteed retirement bennies that you described. Don't want to teach anything, because they know they'll never really make a difference to any of the students. The students that do show potential leave their classes for the AP classes, and they are left with the friggin' creatures from Dr. Moreau's Island. Go with the flow and collect the paycheck every 2 weeks.

She left public education and now works for a private school. There is a high standard to uphold, with an equally rewarding paycheck to compensate. The principle and administrators don't take any shit from the student, and will kick one out of the school if they turn into one of those kids that keeps the others from learning. The formula is, according to her, wildly successful and she is really happy to be teaching again to students that actually want to learn. Instead of the public school holding pens that keep these delinquents until they're old enough to just transfer them to the criminal justice department.
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  #76  
Old 16 March 2017, 14:38
Paul85 Paul85 is offline
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Quote:
most bright eyed and motivated teachers say "screw it" and pack their bags.
I know lots of teachers who basically burned out before they even hit zenith of their careers. I was on a verge of burning out myself even though I teach at Uni very occasionally.

It's hard not to throw entire ideals of scholarship out of the window when you realize that your superiors don't give a hamster's butt about students actually learning something and care more about paperwork, taking students' or their parents' money and creating more and more weird guidelines for you to follow. You're faced with angry and sometimes stupid parents, angry and stupid students, angry and stupid superiors and on top of that you try to squeeze some knowledge into bunch of self-made airheads who come into school only because they have to or their parents made them to. Rare cases of brilliant classes are just that, a rarity that hurts even more when you stop teaching that class and get back to the usual drag of everyday attempts at "teaching".

The teachers who manage to stay afloat in that environment are either capable of and willing to play two balls at once or are sleazy, incompetent people who just try to coast thru their job until they either hit retirement or find another school where they will get paid better for doing the same or even less.

And as any real teacher will tell you, politics stay out of the classroom at all times. School is for learning. Yet there are people who are more than willing to turn school environment into a battleground for both social and politic issues. What for? My take is on money, of course.
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  #77  
Old 16 March 2017, 14:46
Instruct1 Instruct1 is offline
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Sharky, you pose the ultimate question about pay. That question leads to the very fundamentals of what teaching actually is, where it came from, and all the many issues it has today--and why everything is now broken.

I don't have all the answers, but from my personal experience and IMO, I think I can say that most teachers go into the profession (or at least they use to), with only one goal--to teach,inspire and to help another individual. In many ways, teaching is generally not viewed as a profession for personal achievement, but a calling of self-sacrifice for the benefit of another. Hence, a teacher does not "normally" find their life purpose or satisfaction through compensation, but good will. It's almost like a missionary, aid worker, etc... they go do their duties to help others, and are not worried about compensation--at least at first. So when a teacher today raises issues about pay, it's pretty common that people think of them (teachers) as public servants, and not "true professionals" who deserve more.

Now the challenge with that (good will) comes because the world has changed, and where I also completely agree with your points about pay and the other changes that need to be made from the top down. Industrialization, economic growth and massive changes in civil society, have completely changed since the first model of teaching was created. There are a lot of teachers who are not ready or capable of preparing this generation for the workforce of today/tomorrow. Being a proctor of information can only go so far, especially in STEM fields. How is it a STEM teacher is supposed to prepare a student for a STEM career, when they have never been in one themselves? It's crazy, and is one of the reasons students are not doing better in this area,IMO. The weakness for the teaching profession(and really no fault of the teacher), is that most teachers lack any real-world experience, which was not necessary before, but is priceless today.

Today a teacher cannot survive on a "thank you for all you do" from students, parents or administrators, their actual passion to teach can only go so far when there are issues with pay and crazy lib policies that go beyond their control. And to be honest, many parents, administrators and students, don't respect teachers-- at all. Thus today, the entire teaching profession is way behind the curve in relation to all advancements in society, teacher relations with society, and of course the liberal cray cray. It's a bad deal for many these days to be a teacher, and that's unfortunate.

This is a link to a timeline of the teaching profession, it's stunning.
http://www.pbs.org/onlyateacher/timeline.html

Last edited by Instruct1; 16 March 2017 at 14:48. Reason: spelling
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  #78  
Old 16 March 2017, 14:50
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Society long ago decided that schools were going to be places where kids could be kept, for up to 8 hours per day, off the streets. Back when this decision was made the thinking was likely: They may absorb something and not be completely useless, plus they won't be robbing grandma while she does her daily market shopping.

However as authority was taken away from teachers "you ain't going to paddle MY child" (spoken mainly by productive well-meaning parents, but then applied to the wildlings, too) the roving bands of wildlings realized that 1: As long as they didn't commit felonies they could be free to do whatever they wanted during school time and 2: See 1.

And as teaching became more touchy-feely and the authority was further stripped from teachers and replaced with sensitive thinking by people who had never been around wildlings (they can't be that bad, they probably just never had a hug/inspiration!" the wildlings ruined school for everyone else.

Which royally sucks if you raise a family in a district populated mainly by shitheads.

So if schools are going to be a place to corral shitheads during daylight hours so they aren't harassing me-maw as she does her daily market shopping, then teachers need to be given back their authority to control their own classrooms, and administrators need to be given the ability to discipline the shitheads and hold them accountable.
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  #79  
Old 16 March 2017, 14:58
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I substitute teach occasionally at our local high school. Without a degree I take home about $60 for a full day. Even with a degree you are looking at $80/day. The school cannot understand why they cannot get quality substitutes.

I haven't yet paid for the background check that I had to have to apply. I took it because I wanted to help out the school and get to know the teachers, not because I wanted to make any of money.
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Old 16 March 2017, 14:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidA View Post
Society long ago decided that schools were going to be places where kids could be kept, for up to 8 hours per day, off the streets. Back when this decision was made the thinking was likely: They may absorb something and not be completely useless, plus they won't be robbing grandma while she does her daily market shopping.

However as authority was taken away from teachers "you ain't going to paddle MY child" (spoken mainly by productive well-meaning parents, but then applied to the wildlings, too) the roving bands of wildlings realized that 1: As long as they didn't commit felonies they could be free to do whatever they wanted during school time and 2: See 1.

And as teaching became more touchy-feely and the authority was further stripped from teachers and replaced with sensitive thinking by people who had never been around wildlings (they can't be that bad, they probably just never had a hug/inspiration!" the wildlings ruined school for everyone else.

Which royally sucks if you raise a family in a district populated mainly by shitheads.

So if schools are going to be a place to corral shitheads during daylight hours so they aren't harassing me-maw as she does her daily market shopping, then teachers need to be given back their authority to control their own classrooms, and administrators need to be given the ability to discipline the shitheads and hold them accountable.


As bad as public schools are, that analogy is false for most suburban school systems. Probably true for inner city schools dealing kids with no or absentee parents and a high gang influence.
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