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  #61  
Old 19 March 2017, 22:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maas View Post
How about the ones caught in the act?
That's so rare it's not really worth thinking about. If some dude gets caught in the act by 2 witnesses with no motive to fabricate, then sure, take him to the woods and off him. No tears here. But, of the 50+ kid toucher cases I've encountered, only one involved someone getting caught in the act. What's much more common is reporting months or years later, well after any physical evidence would have disappeared.

Ever since switching sides, I've had clients die of drug overdoses, suicides, murders, and all sorts of illnesses. That shit happens. Seeing an innocent person go to jail, however, is what keeps me up at night.
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  #62  
Old 20 March 2017, 00:07
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Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
Childs testimony can be all that's needed. The adult gets offered a plea to be a tier or level 1 sex offender(least amount of time on the "list")in exchange for not going to trial and risking 7-10 years in jail for something that had eno tangible evidence.
I'm not sure about where everyone else works, but as a Sex Crimes/Child Abuse Detective I can say that's not the case in my area. We need far more than just a child's disclosure to move on a case. Rest assured, if we make an arrest/conviction, its because the MF'er did it. YMMV.
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  #63  
Old 20 March 2017, 00:39
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The unit i work on is 60% sex offenders. And I dont mean the 'senior in high school with a freshman girlfriend" type either.

The old story about how bad child molesters have it inside? not so much. General Population is FILLED with the "cho-mo's" as they are called. And no one messes with them.

A guy I give meds to every day? he told me he was there because he "had to shoot some ni**ers" because they were trying to sell drugs in his area. He is black BTW

And they are ALL on meds, and freely admit that they dont need them, they just claim high blood pressure to avoid getting a work assignment.

We need to execute MORE of these scumbags. Not less.
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  #64  
Old 20 March 2017, 05:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
I'm not sure about where everyone else works, but as a Sex Crimes/Child Abuse Detective I can say that's not the case in my area. We need far more than just a child's disclosure to move on a case. Rest assured, if we make an arrest/conviction, its because the MF'er did it. YMMV.
The example I posted is what happened in two local case around me. Both are up for appeal.
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  #65  
Old 20 March 2017, 08:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
I'm not sure about where everyone else works, but as a Sex Crimes/Child Abuse Detective I can say that's not the case in my area. We need far more than just a child's disclosure to move on a case. Rest assured, if we make an arrest/conviction, its because the MF'er did it. YMMV.
Not to get into any details but I'm aware of a case where a guy was arrested, based solely on the testimony of an 18 year old girl (former girlfriend's daughter) - for something that allegedly happened 9 years ago.

Add to it both she and her mother are not the most upstanding of citizens apparently here all it takes is someone making an accusation...

Even once he gets through this it's always going to be part of his background now. There's no getting to another job interview for a chance to explain it away...
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  #66  
Old 20 March 2017, 08:30
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So despite our opinions and political beliefs, no one has offered a foolproof methodology for determining guilt. "Beyond a shadow of a doubt" How do you measure that? 65 posts says we can't

So after nearly 70 posts, we are right back where we started, with our political views and perhaps a few days of spirited debate.

I don't think any of us wants to see an innocent person punished, or even falsely accused. Its merely the level of intensity of punishment we are willing to accept and what we feel justice looks like, for the wrongly convicted.
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  #67  
Old 20 March 2017, 08:35
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The above is true. So much seems to depend on jury selection. The jury of the accused's peers doesn't always deliver the desired verdict for one side or the other.
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  #68  
Old 20 March 2017, 10:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidA View Post
Not to get into any details but I'm aware of a case where a guy was arrested, based solely on the testimony of an 18 year old girl (former girlfriend's daughter) - for something that allegedly happened 9 years ago.
If that's what actually happened and there was nothing more than her disclosure, there is no way in Hell I make that arrest, ever. Sex crimes stay with you in some fashion for life as you stated. I do not the that lightly and would find anyone who does incompetent and unfit. I would hope there would be something more to that story, but that's for a different thread.
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  #69  
Old 20 March 2017, 11:01
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Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
If that's what actually happened and there was nothing more than her disclosure, there is no way in Hell I make that arrest, ever. Sex crimes stay with you in some fashion for life as you stated. I do not the that lightly and would find anyone who does incompetent and unfit. I would hope there would be something more to that story, but that's for a different thread.
Spot on.
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  #70  
Old 20 March 2017, 13:08
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I'm for it in principal and against it in practice. Nothing involving human beings is perfect.

Regarding child molesters, I'm aware of one case around here from before my time that sounded like bullshit right off the bat and sure enough it was. It probably didn't help the innocent guy who got accused though. I also read other people's reports pretty frequently where the detective doesn't believe there is probable cause to charge anyone.
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  #71  
Old 20 March 2017, 14:07
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Originally Posted by bobmueller View Post
25 of the 116 Death Row exonerations involved eyewitness ID.

Of the 2003 total exonerations at UM 's National Registry of Exonerations, 592 involved eyewitness ID.

The jury is still out on the reliability of eyewitness ID. This case is particularly interesting. It's been an issue since at least 1907. The science behind it is very interesting.
One of my favorite TV offerings is a show called "brain games" which examines how our minds function and work, and how very little we can actually focus on at one time. So this does not surprise me that "eyewitness" testimony may be a very weak link. Watched it yesterday, one game involved counting the number of footballs that went across the screen in an animated stadium. I carefully counted, and got 27, which was the correct number. Afterwards they showed it again, and written on the scoreboard was "there are 27 footballs" (never saw it). Most of the others did not see it either. Imagine your case decided on that evidence.
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  #72  
Old 20 March 2017, 14:15
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Originally Posted by 57Medic View Post
how very little we can actually focus on at one time.
Like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGQmdoK_ZfY
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  #73  
Old 20 March 2017, 14:27
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
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Originally Posted by 57Medic View Post
One of my favorite TV offerings is a show called "brain games"
Wife and kids have binged parts of that show. They love it.

A common demonstration in academies or college classes on perception is to have an "event" happen during a lecture, typically involving someone rushing in, "attacking" the lecturer and running out. Then attendees are told to write down a description of the perp, and what happened. It's scary how many descriptions you'll get in a situation like that. Clothing colors and type wrong. Hair color. Head covering. Height.

Yes, an executed criminal will never commit another crime, so they have been completely deterred. But the reality is that there are far too many variables in the justice system to make it possible to administer the ultimate penalty in any manner that approaches justice. If we really do have due process, and all men really are created equal, and we're going to live by that, then we have to do away with the death penalty.

Right now, your chances of facing capital punishment vary based on ZIP code, your race, the victim's race, whether it's an election year, the prosecutor's mood, the victim's employment, etc. In short, it depends on everything BUT your guilt or innocence. That's not justice.

End it. It's too expensive, it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, and it can't be administered fairly. Substitute life without parole, chalk it up to a failed experiment and move on.

Then start working on making it easier for wrongfully convicted people to get some compensation for their time in prison, and some assistance when they get out so they can successfully reintegrate. Most exonerees aren't eligible for post-release assistance because their convictions have been overturned, so they're no longer convicted felons. Nice Catch-22 there.
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  #74  
Old 20 March 2017, 14:32
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That's why LE spends much of their time corroborating the information provided in statements. There are many types of information that is much more reliable than statements.
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  #75  
Old 20 March 2017, 14:33
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That's why LE spends much of their time corroborating the information provided in statements.
Good LE, yes. But not all are good.
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  #76  
Old 20 March 2017, 14:36
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Originally Posted by KidA View Post
Good LE, yes. But not all are good.
That will always be true and there is no way around it. But, with technology being what it is today, arrests and convictions are getting to where they are extremely "technology" based when it comes to evidence collection and analysis which carries over into court proceedings.
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  #77  
Old 20 March 2017, 16:17
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In cases of child predators, there is much more evidence than just the statements of the victims. Normally, there are videos, child porn, multiple complaints, and so on. I spent a lot of my career going up against them, and could tell pretty spot on when I was sitting across the interview table from a real predator. Unless you've been face to face with one...
Proving those cases most times was a no brainer. Predators don't care much for covering their tracks. They will do it until they are stopped. Had I the option, I'd have gladly used the bullet to the brain pan method of stopping them.
We had to take prints and photos of all the county predators once a year. I could always tell when one walked through the door to be processed. Most were multiple offenders.
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  #78  
Old 20 March 2017, 16:33
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Originally Posted by Maas View Post
The current DP system doesn't work. It's not a deterrent and the only ones who benefit are the lawyers.
This sums it up for me.
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  #79  
Old 20 March 2017, 16:45
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This came across my Twitter feed today, touching on the religious aspect of capital punishment.

Dialogue As Dissent: Religious Leaders Speak Out on Capital Punishment
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  #80  
Old 20 March 2017, 18:05
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There is no possible way to calculate the deterrent value of the death penalty. People who are deterred by it don't commit the capital crime. Just as with any law, there is a punishment for breaking it. In these cases, society determined that the penalty should be death. Consider this: the people who commit these crimes know that the death penalty is there waiting, yet they go ahead anyway. They make their deal right then and there. Government has a God-given responsibility to carry out justice.
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