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  #61  
Old 24 November 2009, 22:27
JMD69 JMD69 is offline
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okami1,

Excellent and well written post. I will reread your explanation of pelvic tilt so that I may better understand it and experiment. Although my response may not be as eloquent as your initial post, I will say that after having taken some time off, putting on weight and now getting back to the basics of running, I am always eager to learn techniques that will assist in my lessening the pain or injuries that may occur when running.

I recently started working on a method that I read about called prose running. I am not certain if I am using the technique correctly but after having read the proper use of form, I will say that I have noticed a significant change in my comfort level (better) when running. I did experience very sore calf muscles at the onset but over time that has subsided. I now feel better and less sore and no more knee pain.

I have heard a lot of positive remarks regarding the five finger shoes. I hope to buy a pair soon. I do make it a point to run in my least cushioned new balance shoes that are almost like wearing stale socks! I now understand the concept of avoiding the impact of solid heel strike and the impact imposed.

Thanks for starting this thread. My 40 year old body needs to adapt and change so I can continue working on improving and running my mileage goals.

Take care,
JMD
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  #62  
Old 24 November 2009, 22:31
random random is offline
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That article is amazing.

I tried thinking about these things when I ran today. The mid-foot landing wasn't too hard to change. I'm a little unclear on the correct pelvis position. I should be tilting it forward, like hunching my back? I think I fixed the foot position but my time was the worst it's been since I've started running again. Feel fantastic, though, so I'm not complaining too much, provided I improve.
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  #63  
Old 24 November 2009, 22:38
JMD69 JMD69 is offline
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Regarding correct pelvis position: I think sketches are in order!
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  #64  
Old 24 November 2009, 22:48
poison poison is offline
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pelvis tilt: do a hip thrust. That's 'forward'.
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  #65  
Old 24 November 2009, 23:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poison View Post
pelvis tilt: do a hip thrust. That's 'forward'.
Sooo, what you're trying to say is the "in" stroke during s*x
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  #66  
Old 25 November 2009, 01:00
okami1 okami1 is offline
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Originally Posted by John6719 View Post
Sooo, what you're trying to say is the "in" stroke during s*x
Actually that's not too far from the truth.

JMD, thanks for the feedback. I'm feeling the same way.

I'd never seen the pose method before, but it looks a lot like what I have been trying to get to. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to have to do more research and try out some of the training techniques. I found THIS on youtube which gives a brief but cool look at the pose training technique.

Sketches of proper pelvic alignment:

allison-stokke-05150701.jpg

allison_stokke_2.jpg
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  #67  
Old 25 November 2009, 01:02
okami1 okami1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poison View Post
http://www.menshealth.com/cda/articl...eac____&page=1

All the rucking I did in the army forced me to change my stride, to the point friends make fun of my running. You can't heel strike with 60 effing lbs on your back. :sarcasm: Interestingly, I have no ankle, knee, or hip pain, despite the mega-abuse.
I guess you're doing something right.

Have you read Born to Run?
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  #68  
Old 25 November 2009, 01:18
Max Power Max Power is offline
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Originally Posted by random View Post
That article is amazing.

I tried thinking about these things when I ran today. The mid-foot landing wasn't too hard to change. I'm a little unclear on the correct pelvis position. I should be tilting it forward, like hunching my back? I think I fixed the foot position but my time was the worst it's been since I've started running again. Feel fantastic, though, so I'm not complaining too much, provided I improve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMD69 View Post
Regarding correct pelvis position: I think sketches are in order!
Quote:
Originally Posted by poison View Post
pelvis tilt: do a hip thrust. That's 'forward'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John6719 View Post
Sooo, what you're trying to say is the "in" stroke during s*x
Quote:
Originally Posted by okami1 View Post
Actually that's not too far from the truth.

JMD, thanks for the feedback. I'm feeling the same way.

I'd never seen the pose method before, but it looks a lot like what I have been trying to get to. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to have to do more research and try out some of the training techniques. I found THIS on youtube which gives a brief but cool look at the pose training technique.

Sketches of proper pelvic alignment:

Attachment 9965

Attachment 9966
I like where this is going

But unfortunately, no, on all counts. It would actually be closer to the out position.

Think of it as bringing the front of your pelvis "up" and the back "down". You're trying to get rid of the arch in the lower back (not completely, though). Unfortunately, the first girl is thrusting her pelvis forward, and consequently, down in the front and up in the back.

Contract your abs and squeeze your glutes, then you'll get the idea. Not doing so (down in front, up in back) forces the lumbar region to curve too far forward. Contracting your abs brings the front up, squeezing your glutes brings the back down, which reduces that curve, reducing the compression in the lumbar region, and putting your hip/pelvis joint in a more biomechanically efficient position.

An excellent article to read, if you are really interested, is the five part Neanderthal No More series on T-Nation (T-Nation.com Neanderthal No More, Part V - should have links to the previous articles as well, in the beginning).
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  #69  
Old 25 November 2009, 01:35
okami1 okami1 is offline
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I should have put quote marks around the word "proper."

Great explanation.
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  #70  
Old 25 November 2009, 01:38
Max Power Max Power is offline
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LOL - the pictures worked on many different levels... Okay, two levels. Incorrect form and... Well, you can guess, LOL

Anyone have any input on the Nike Free versus the Pegasus? I love my Five Fingers, but the Army isn't too fond of that (I'm not even going to attempt it, actually). Or other similar shoes from other manufacturers?

I didn't even know about them until I read the article poison posted (great article, by the way).
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  #71  
Old 25 November 2009, 05:20
random random is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMD69 View Post
Regarding correct pelvis position: I think sketches are in order!
Well so far all the correct ones have been male.


So if I'm understanding this right, while running you should be squeezing your abs and contracting your glutes at all times? Because your lower back makes a C and you want it to be an l?
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  #72  
Old 25 November 2009, 10:46
okami1 okami1 is offline
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Well so far all the correct ones have been male.


So if I'm understanding this right, while running you should be squeezing your abs and contracting your glutes at all times? Because your lower back makes a C and you want it to be an l?
Yes to the second part. But the alignment is not generated through force of muscular contraction exclusively, i.e. it shouldn't feel like you're working hard to maintain your posture. You still want some arch to your lower back, just very minimal. I'll see if I can dig up some videos or photos of what we're talking about. Something more illustrative of this concept than the previous photos. Not that what those photos demonstrate isn't valuable; I'm thinking she might even pass muster with SOTB.
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  #73  
Old 25 November 2009, 11:47
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Keep in mind that those of us who sit for hours every day are going to have two issues, guaranteed, which affect running posture:

1) the hip flexors will shrink, pulling the hips out of proper alignment when standing or running. (out stroke of the hip thrust) So we need to stretch those good, on a regular basis throughout the day.

2) Shoulders will round forward because we tend to slouch. The pecs shrink, which keeps them rounded forward. The scapulae are supposed to be back and down (stand bolt upright, and push the shouder blades towards each other in the back, and down toward the butt).
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  #74  
Old 25 November 2009, 12:58
kosty kosty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poison View Post
Keep in mind that those of us who sit for hours every day are going to have two issues, guaranteed, which affect running posture:

1) the hip flexors will shrink, pulling the hips out of proper alignment when standing or running. (out stroke of the hip thrust) So we need to stretch those good, on a regular basis throughout the day.

2) Shoulders will round forward because we tend to slouch. The pecs shrink, which keeps them rounded forward. The scapulae are supposed to be back and down (stand bolt upright, and push the shouder blades towards each other in the back, and down toward the butt).
These two factors are what I fight every time I run. The shortened hip flexors caused and injury when I pushed it too hard, so now I stretch them daily. The forward rounded shoulders cause me trapezius & neck pain whenever I let myself slouch for any length of time. When I run I pull the belly button in & up (using the transverse abdominals) to correct the pelvic tilt, and consciously pull my scapulae down & back. If I relax either of those I will pay with pain throughout next days.
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  #75  
Old 25 November 2009, 13:10
Max Power Max Power is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poison View Post
Keep in mind that those of us who sit for hours every day are going to have two issues, guaranteed, which affect running posture:

1) the hip flexors will shrink, pulling the hips out of proper alignment when standing or running. (out stroke of the hip thrust) So we need to stretch those good, on a regular basis throughout the day.

2) Shoulders will round forward because we tend to slouch. The pecs shrink, which keeps them rounded forward. The scapulae are supposed to be back and down (stand bolt upright, and push the shouder blades towards each other in the back, and down toward the butt).
Exactly (though I think we're using different terms for out and in, out to me is thrusting forward and in to... something )

I highly recommend the Neanderthal No More articles. They go into tremendous depth on causes of the two things above, how to fix them, then a program at the end of the series to achieve that correction. Very well put together series of articles.
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  #76  
Old 26 November 2009, 13:26
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Great posts and thread, okami! Much appreciated. To Max Power as well.

I hate running. :)

Having said that, I would really, really like to be good at it. I had ACL reconstruction last year and have been trying hard to regain some respectability in my runs. Additionally, the bouncing of running causes considerable pain from herniated discs in my neck, which radiates in my head, down my arm and into scapular area - it sucks. (I don't recommend BJJ - both injuries, among others, caused from that... :). I also have a long history of shin splints. Lastly, my lower back hurts like hell when I run (about two inches from center, waistband of shorts). So, I'm making a last ditch effort at running before I get back into cycling.

My shin splints have been addressed through maximum-support shoes (ASICS Gel Evolution 5) and orthotics.

Having read this thread and being interested in the POSE method for some time, I decided to give this a run variation a go this morning - atleast how I understand the method. I tried to buy some Five Fingers yesterday, but the store was out of my size - the guy said they're selling like hot cakes. (They had the FeelMax, though) Not wanting to try this run in the ASICS, I used a pair of those casual Adidas motorsport shoes with minimal soles.

My *run* went like this:
2 mins ON (jog) / 2 mins OFF (walk) for 3 repetitions. After my calves feeling like they were going to blow, I went to 5 repetitions of 1 min ON / 2 min OFF. I spent some time at the "Born to Run" Google group yesterday and the overwhelming majority of folks said to start slowly, so that's what I did. I may have overdone it anyway with regard to my calves.

It was odd trying to run in this fashion and I felt like I was tip-toeing but instead of hunched over I was vertical. I must've looked like a runaway fruitcake.

On my run two days ago, I had to stop because my back was killing me. The only time my back hurt today was when I got lazy and reverted back to a heel strike - with my ass sticking out a la bad pelvis tilt. I also tried to walk with the pelvis tilt. Well, my back pain was gone within a minute and didn't bother for the remaining 3 1-minute reps. My Iliopsoas muscles were pumped. If I understand this correctly, these are the muscles hit during flutter kicks. That's where I felt it anyway. I also noticed that the bouncing was nearly gone - my head *felt* like it was tracking a tight rope. So, no neck pain. All in all, I don't hurt right now -- EXCEPT my calves. I wonder if I'm doing it correctly?



PS:

I mentioned the FeelMax so I might as well describe them...they are super thin on the soles (1mm). They look okay and not as goofy as the VFF. Reviews show they suck in wet weather and are like sponges. At $80 I decided to pass on those.

I did find a product to be released in Spring 2010 that look like they could be a winner: http://www.terraplana.com/the-evo

I found a pair of Five Finger Flows at another store and will pick them up Saturday. I'm looking forward to trying those out. I'll get the Born To Run book tomorrow so I can further understand the method - and/or correct what I did this morning.
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  #77  
Old 28 November 2009, 16:49
okami1 okami1 is offline
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smoked- Flutter kicks do use the iliopsoas muscle along with the abs and quads. (As your user title testifies ) Glad to hear that these postural adjustments helped mitigate the pain you were having. And yes, this running posture does not look nearly as cool as sprinting. Runaway fruitcake probably depends on your locale. As I said before, there's enough fruitcakery around here that I could run in a clown suit and only get a glance.

As to your calves, when I switched to low padding shoes and finally to the fivefingers, I experienced VERY sore calves for the first week or so. Just had to run through them. I have talked to other runners and this is one of the more common complaints, so I would guess you're doing it right.

Born to run is a great book about the reasons behind believing in a running style that does not make use of padded running shoes, but as far as the method goes, it doesn't really address it too well. Chi running and the pose method literature that I've read so far are much better technically speaking.
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Old 1 December 2009, 09:02
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Thanks okami. One thing I didn't do was lift my feet straight up vice pulling through the stride. I'll give that a try today with the VFF....

BTW, I downloaded a 75 page pdf "book" describing barefoot running and how to get started. If anyone wants a copy, PM me.
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  #79  
Old 4 December 2009, 12:08
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Yesterday during my run I did some work with the foot placement thing. I found that starting by landing on my forefoot, and gradually adjusting the attitude of the foot towards the heel was an easier way to really feel the mid-foot strike happening properly. I used to go the other way, from heel to mid-foot, and changing it around really helped with both the landing and the lifting of the leg through the stride. Also, it seemed like this made lifting the leg using the iliopsoas easier as well.
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Old 4 December 2009, 12:24
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Sometimes I think people make running too complicated. Granted, this is coming from someone who's knees are not the happiest they have been, but I can generally feel comfortable in my runtimes -- considering the pathetic amount of time I actually dedicate to this area.

Still, I won't lie when I state I am intrigued by some of your comments. I'm not sure I am intrigued enough to change my running style to POSE. I might spring for the 5-Fingers shoes, though....
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