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Old 7 May 2008, 14:32
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Death of Reserve CA and PSYOP?

Im just thinking here. Lately we have a ton of people pulled from the IRR (officers and enlisted) and sent through a few week reclass to make them either CA or PSYOP totally ignoring the SOF truth about not mass producing. CAPOC is probably the most costly command under USARC due to a lot of the equipment/schools we have going above and beyond what the average reserve unit demands (Comms and Language schooling come to mind.)
How long before the bean counters put two and two together and just send a platoon or so of soldiers in a deploying BCT to CA or PSYOP crash course and give them the CA/PSYOP job as an additional duty?
Thought, comments?
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Old 7 May 2008, 18:38
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OD, I think you bring up a valid point. It might happen, until one of those mass produced soldiers prints a product that is stupid, gets picked up by the media, and makes the US look bad.

I cannot speak as to the CA side of the house, but there is too much at stake to mass produce PSYOP soldiers and we can only hope that the powers that be realize that.
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Old 7 May 2008, 20:41
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Qualifying statement: I have zero experience with CA.

Interested Observer's Question: What do you make of the S9/CMO elements now organic at BN level in theater, as it relates to the original question?
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Old 8 May 2008, 10:31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olive Drab View Post
Im just thinking here. Lately we have a ton of people pulled from the IRR (officers and enlisted) and sent through a few week reclass to make them either CA or PSYOP totally ignoring the SOF truth about not mass producing. CAPOC is probably the most costly command under USARC due to a lot of the equipment/schools we have going above and beyond what the average reserve unit demands (Comms and Language schooling come to mind.)
How long before the bean counters put two and two together and just send a platoon or so of soldiers in a deploying BCT to CA or PSYOP crash course and give them the CA/PSYOP job as an additional duty?
Thought, comments?
I thought the whole reason for taking yall out of the SOF arena was so that you could be mass produced. Only takes a stroke of the pen ya know:D
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Old 8 May 2008, 12:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olive Drab View Post
Im just thinking here. Lately we have a ton of people pulled from the IRR (officers and enlisted) and sent through a few week reclass to make them either CA or PSYOP totally ignoring the SOF truth about not mass producing. CAPOC is probably the most costly command under USARC due to a lot of the equipment/schools we have going above and beyond what the average reserve unit demands (Comms and Language schooling come to mind.)
How long before the bean counters put two and two together and just send a platoon or so of soldiers in a deploying BCT to CA or PSYOP crash course and give them the CA/PSYOP job as an additional duty?
Thought, comments?
The Marines are doing this with an active Field Artillery unit. At one point there was thought of doing the same with Army ADA.

Army's and Marine Corps' BCTs/RCTs embrace civil-military considerations through non-kinetic targeting in effects coordination cells whether they have an embedded civil affairs team or not. Sometimes that resides in the S5's lane. Maneuver commanders need to understand the civil layer of the COP to be successful on the battlefield. Civil-military operations is an integral part of planning processes. It is the C in METT-TC.

Bottom-line, DOD may 'mass-produce' civil affairs assets but the mission and job itself cannot become mass-produced by the very nature of what it entails.
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Old 8 May 2008, 23:59
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Populations are key terrain in COIN and UW. Until the war to "occupy" this terrain is given a footing more equal to the traditional "shooting" war, we will not be successful.

The before mentioned idea could, unfortunately, be just another step towards practical obsolescence. After all IO appears to have evolved itself into a planning process where a retarded methodology of "Hey, I have a great idea!" has taken a central role.

While the I agree that "the mission and job itself cannot be mass-produced," it certainly can be ineffectively executed and plagued with out dated models and unyielding paradigms.
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Old 9 May 2008, 11:46
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Originally Posted by ilots View Post
While the I agree that "the mission and job itself cannot be mass-produced," it certainly can be ineffectively executed and plagued with out dated models and unyielding paradigms.
Concur; which is why basic doctrinal training should be followed on with current lessons learned, FM3-24, etc.
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Old 10 May 2008, 15:04
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Lightbulb Depending on the POTUS election...

And the pulse of the people...I can envision the POTUS expanding CA, PSYOPS and MI while reducing combat troops strength....

Stay safe.
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Old 11 May 2008, 21:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalchica View Post
The Marines are doing this with an active Field Artillery unit. At one point there was thought of doing the same with Army ADA.

Army's and Marine Corps' BCTs/RCTs embrace civil-military considerations through non-kinetic targeting in effects coordination cells whether they have an embedded civil affairs team or not. Sometimes that resides in the S5's lane. Maneuver commanders need to understand the civil layer of the COP to be successful on the battlefield. Civil-military operations is an integral part of planning processes. It is the C in METT-TC.

Bottom-line, DOD may 'mass-produce' civil affairs assets but the mission and job itself cannot become mass-produced by the very nature of what it entails.
What you say is true but it appears that for what you say to work it relies on a lot of "shoulds" and not a lot of definites one way or the other.


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Originally Posted by Metalchica View Post
Concur; which is why basic doctrinal training should be followed on with current lessons learned, FM3-24, etc.
Doctrine is not followed. How many of your fellow troops even read the doctrine or have even looked at it? What about maneuver commanders utilzing the teams?


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Originally Posted by ilots View Post
Populations are key terrain in COIN and UW. Until the war to "occupy" this terrain is given a footing more equal to the traditional "shooting" war, we will not be successful.

The before mentioned idea could, unfortunately, be just another step towards practical obsolescence. After all IO appears to have evolved itself into a planning process where a retarded methodology of "Hey, I have a great idea!" has taken a central role.

While the I agree that "the mission and job itself cannot be mass-produced," it certainly can be ineffectively executed and plagued with out dated models and unyielding paradigms.
I agree and the last statement is pretty close to reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy View Post
And the pulse of the people...I can envision the POTUS expanding CA, PSYOPS and MI while reducing combat troops strength....

Stay safe.
Definitely what I was thinking as well especially with certain MI Mos.

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Originally Posted by theBilldoman View Post
OD, I think you bring up a valid point. It might happen, until one of those mass produced soldiers prints a product that is stupid, gets picked up by the media, and makes the US look bad.

I cannot speak as to the CA side of the house, but there is too much at stake to mass produce PSYOP soldiers and we can only hope that the powers that be realize that.
I dont think they do on the CA side. They just see the overall reconstruction/nation building mission and say we need more CA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Believeraz View Post
Qualifying statement: I have zero experience with CA.

Interested Observer's Question: What do you make of the S9/CMO elements now organic at BN level in theater, as it relates to the original question?
Organic teams or a beefed up S-5 shop? Im not sure what you're asking?


some good points not directly related but in an older thread related to the move out of usasoc http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=45759
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Old 12 May 2008, 11:29
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Originally Posted by Olive Drab View Post
Doctrine is not followed. How many of your fellow troops even read the doctrine or have even looked at it?
On mission the last thing you are thinking of is "Which docrinal CA core task does today's meeting with the sheik and subsequent actions fall under?"

The question is not whether it is followed or not. Students generally retain 10% of classroom instruction. OJT is very valuable and relevant but you need a standard baseline for learning, and that starts with doctrine. Also, to justify funding for training for a unit, the unit's existence has to established in the CONOP. METLS stem from the CONOP. METLs drive TLOs and ELOs. TLOs and ELOs are derived from doctrine.
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Old 12 May 2008, 20:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalchica View Post
On mission the last thing you are thinking of is "Which docrinal CA core task does today's meeting with the sheik and subsequent actions fall under?"

The question is not whether it is followed or not. Students generally retain 10% of classroom instruction. OJT is very valuable and relevant but you need a standard baseline for learning, and that starts with doctrine. Also, to justify funding for training for a unit, the unit's existence has to established in the CONOP. METLS stem from the CONOP. METLs drive TLOs and ELOs. TLOs and ELOs are derived from doctrine.
I need to respond to this offline.
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Old 6 June 2008, 12:25
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when I was up in CAPOC G3 we violated 3 of the 4 SOF Truths building battle rosters. What fun and joy to be had by all.

not to mention the fat slobs that would show up to get trained wearing maternity BDU pants, yes males.

Awesome stuff. i could create my own posting on the stupid shit we had, have and will do to keep boots on ground.

thank the Lord I hung my shit up.

ever train 164 Joes in PSYOP in 19 days? :)
Then send them off to war?

We did.
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Old 6 July 2008, 05:38
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When I mobilized, EVERYONE else was sent off to CA school. I stayed behind at Ft Bragg because I already had that MOS. The folks all came back asking what were all those powerpoint slides about. It's a really tough job to be dropped into.

The advantage of CA from reserves is that we have civilian experience. engineers, doctors, vets, municipal workers who can all pull together. It's really tough to get PVT Snuffy to bring in his civilian skills when he turned 18 last week. No one went CA who was not already at least an E-5.

Out of my mobilization group, four were KIA. I knew two of them.

Of course the way things get done is surprising at times. But we do it. As the old saying goes, you are better off with an army of sheep led by a lion than an army of lions led by a sheep.

In conclusion, I think CA training ought to be incorporated with PLDC.
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Old 14 December 2008, 21:19
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The last several deployments of CA have been made up mostly of reclassed IRR involuntary recalls. Not enough people are vounteering for CA, so the Army's got to get them some way.
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Old 14 December 2008, 22:19
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And you know this as fact how? Are you on staff at USACAPOC or USAHRC?
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Old 14 December 2008, 23:13
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And you know this as fact how? Are you on staff at USACAPOC or USAHRC?
Yes. Former USACAPOC G1 assistant NCO. Also went to school with the re-classers and deployed with them.
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Old 15 December 2008, 01:52
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Originally Posted by mrmixitup View Post
The last several deployments of CA have been made up mostly of reclassed IRR involuntary recalls. Not enough people are vounteering for CA, so the Army's got to get them some way.
This contradicts your info in other threads that you responded to. Also youre not the only one who has spent time at HHC CRAPOC.
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Old 15 December 2008, 02:59
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Originally Posted by Metalchica View Post
The Marines are doing this with an active Field Artillery unit. At one point there was thought of doing the same with Army ADA.

Army's and Marine Corps' BCTs/RCTs embrace civil-military considerations through non-kinetic targeting in effects coordination cells whether they have an embedded civil affairs team or not. Sometimes that resides in the S5's lane. Maneuver commanders need to understand the civil layer of the COP to be successful on the battlefield. Civil-military operations is an integral part of planning processes. It is the C in METT-TC.

Bottom-line, DOD may 'mass-produce' civil affairs assets but the mission and job itself cannot become mass-produced by the very nature of what it entails.

The Marines have a history of doing this. That is what they did in Vietnam. A retired gunnery Sgt told me he thought the CAP idea was great, but they threw anyone into it without any type of filtration or special training and he felt that was a huge mistake. The idea was a Marine follows orders and does what he is told so follow your orders and it will be fine. He had two tours and was a Khe San (sp) so his was an opinion from experance.
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Old 15 December 2008, 16:58
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Just a general comment about PSYOP. I have studied and researched the field going back to WWI. If there has been one lesson learned, one problem that has occurred in war after war, it is the military's concept that they can take any officer, infantry or artillery, and just post him to a PSYOP position. Every recommendation or after-action or lesson learned you read states that the officer must be trained and have as his primary mission PSYOP. I don't know why this must be learned over and over. It has been a known problem for the last century.
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Old 21 December 2008, 11:56
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In conclusion, I think CA training ought to be incorporated with PLDC.
They were supposed to have a one hour block on the subject in WLC, however, we spent that hour discussing war stories and bitching about getting deployed to Iraq instead of Afghanistan.
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