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Old 15 April 2019, 17:50
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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Marine Corps Identity Crisis

Brothers,
I'm treading on your ground but felt compelled to comment - I didn't see mention of this down in the lounge. Quite an article in the Washington Times I've linked, below. Some quotes, below.
There's been a lot invested in MARSOC - I am shocked to see a recommendation about disbanding.
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Marine Corps suffers identity crisis in age of cyberwarfare, artificial intelligence

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...nominee-told-/

“I pose a single question to drive our identity: Are we naval in character or purpose? If it’s the former, then we can continue to be anything we want and just continue using funny words for windows, walls and water fountains,” Maj. Spaeder wrote.

“Mr. Wood added more fuel to the debate over the future of the Marines with a 60-page analysis last month recommending in part the disbanding of the Marine Raiders, the Marines’ special operations command known as MARSOC created in the years after the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. He argues that the 2,700-member force is too small to be cost-effective for a service with limited manpower and resources and provides “little direct value for the Corps, especially with regard to the Corps‘ primary mission.”
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Old 15 April 2019, 18:18
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An O-4 wrote an "open letter" to the Commandant? Unless there's more to it than that, not very newsworthy.

Whoever "Mr. Wood" is, he missed the basic fact that MARSOC isn't designed to do anything for the USMC. MARSOC is part of USSOCOM, and exists to perform missions for USSOCOM. They were created at the direction of SECDEF, against the will of the Commandant.
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Old 15 April 2019, 18:59
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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Gavin,
According to the article Mr. Wood is "a senior defense analyst at The Heritage Foundation." Right or wrong, the Heritage Foundation has influenced various past policies and legislation.
I was hoping to get the Marines' take as to the "identity crisis".
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  #4  
Old 15 April 2019, 19:32
WGH0922 WGH0922 is online now
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MARSOC has advanced by leaps and bounds in it's short 13 years, thanks to it's Force Recon Marines forming the foundation. They are active and making a difference in every combat theater. Their MSOT's, with heavy JTAC qual'd members were critical to the outcome in Marawi 2 years ago. I've been out of the game for a while but the next Commandant doesn't agree with the author of that article.

That suggestion sparked a spirited rejection from the Raiders, and even Gen. Berger weighed in.

“At this stage, they have developed farther, faster than most thought possible,” the commandant nominee said last week in response to congressional inquiries. “I think they’re vital. I think [MARSOC] and the command are better with them there.”
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Old 15 April 2019, 19:58
8654maine 8654maine is online now
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Seems like there are many folks who do not believe in evolution. Seems like they only want the old kind of finches.

The mission of the Marine rifle squad includes "locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy" "in every clime and place". This does not limit this to a beachhead or amphibious landing.

There have been naysayers in the Corps in regards to SOCOM. They denied Force Recon into SOCOM ranks in the 80/90's and they want to rescind MARSOC currently.

This love/hate relationship from the Corps is similar to what I heard from Army SF about Big Army.

As for Mr. Wood's assertion about MARSOC "adding little value to the Corps", I've heard that type of speech from detractors of SEAL's and SF when they started out. I believe history to have found those assertions false.

Staying relevant is about defining perception, meeting the challenges, and winning the purse-strings.

The Corps has challenges. MARSOC is not one of them.

Evolve or wither.
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  #6  
Old 15 April 2019, 20:29
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
Seems like there are many folks who do not believe in evolution. Seems like they only want the old kind of finches.
…..

This love/hate relationship from the Corps is similar to what I heard from Army SF about Big Army.

As for Mr. Wood's assertion about MARSOC "adding little value to the Corps", I've heard that type of speech from detractors of SEAL's and SF when they started out. I believe history to have found those assertions false.
…...
Brother,

There has been an anit-SF "undercurrent" in the "Big Army" that I've encountered over the years, and I was wondering if and how strong that effort sentiment might exist within the Corps. I always get nervous when those who influence our policies start to insert themselves. My recollection is that MARSOC was directed by former SECDEF Rumsfeld - and in my mind it might be "reorganized" by any subsequent SECDF. It ain't like MARSOC was created by Goldwater-Nichols Act. Thank you for your thoughts and your sentiments.
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Old 15 April 2019, 21:26
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Here is the study from Heritage:

https://www.heritage.org/defense/rep...s-marine-corps

Here is the War on the Rocks article:

https://warontherocks.com/2019/03/si...-marine-corps/

-Stan
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Last edited by Stanley_White; 15 April 2019 at 21:38.
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Old 16 April 2019, 08:40
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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@ Stan,
Thanks for the links, bro.
Everyone of the issues cited in the Report could be solved with more money. I have to agree that Naval power is needed to deal with China's expansion and his argument about it, may cause policy makers to respond to the Report's recommendations. The point that if the Marines keep doing non-naval related missions, they can be replaced by the Army is scary.
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Old 16 April 2019, 08:44
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Articles like this are nothing new, especially the "we're loosing our focus" hysteria.

I remember the piss down their leg articles against Force Recon taking on the DA mission, even though it ad always been aprt of the mission, just not a formal train up for the precision raid level of competency we implemented.
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Old 16 April 2019, 09:04
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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SB,
Thanks for that background. I am worried that it is more than hysteria this time around... I got more concerned when I read the "War on the Rocks" link that Stan provided and there was mention that the US Senate was getting involved in this. That, in my experience is not a good sign. Something tells me that there may be some major changes in the works, especially if the Republicans retake the House - along with retaining the presidency and the Senate.
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Old 16 April 2019, 12:28
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Just my two cents on the subject and not a MARSOC guy. Coming from an overall perspective that a long running conflict between conventional and unconventional troops and tactics has always existed in most military forces from around the world and throughout time.

Anything outside of the "Fall in line with uniformity and under my complete control mentality" has always been attacked by the establishment of the old school leadership hierarchies and internal command structuring from bottom top within our military.

The animosity and attacks to shut down anything out of the specific controls of narcissist generals has always been around and always will be because they see these types of units, as threats, not assets to their rise as notable warriors of history.

Anything outside of their perceived normal military functions is a distraction to them, until they are lost for solutions with conventional wisdom and turn to unconventional means to be rescued from their hubris, while still trying to claim victory for themselves.

Of course this mentality can be a two way street and equally damaging to effectiveness when observations have proven a need for both unconventional and conventional forces to achieve success.
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Old 16 April 2019, 14:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu King Lawyer View Post
SB,
Thanks for that background. I am worried that it is more than hysteria this time around... I got more concerned when I read the "War on the Rocks" link that Stan provided and there was mention that the US Senate was getting involved in this. That, in my experience is not a good sign. Something tells me that there may be some major changes in the works, especially if the Republicans retake the House - along with retaining the presidency and the Senate.
v/r
fkl
Plenty of supposedly loyal Marine officers like to play paddy cake with politicians on the hill.

USMC has a "other missions as directed" line in our mission statement. That's enough for me.

The Corps did most of their time in VN doing non "naval" missions and talk about them being replaced or absorbed by the Army has been ongoing since WWI due to that. So far never happen. Nether of those 2 articles raises the slightest bit of concern to me; both of them appear support a vocal minority in the Corps.
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Old 16 April 2019, 15:10
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This type of hand-wringing has been going on with the Corps for, oh, 200-something years, After each conflict there is some perceived "identity crisis" about the Corps' role in future conflict.

The Marines were never designed to stand the Ruskies down in the Fulda gap or to occupy land, and as long as we have a Navy, embassies, and interests overseas which require travelling the seas to get to, we'll have a Corps.

They do need to adapt and evolve, and they will. They always have.
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  #14  
Old 16 April 2019, 17:23
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Quite frankly, we have been doing fine for the past 243 years and perfecting the principles of improvising, overcoming, and adapting to our stated missions and any others that arise. People simply need to leave us alone. We truly have no identity crisis of any kind whatsoever.
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Old 16 April 2019, 21:04
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Somehow, "what the Corps really needs" always seems to benefit the concerned party directly. I'm sure it's just coincidence. S/F....Ken M
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  #16  
Old 30 November 2019, 10:21
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Can't get rid of them, what unit would you seed the nascent 'Space Marines' with??

:)
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  #17  
Old 30 November 2019, 14:53
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Anyone know the authors background?
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Old 30 November 2019, 18:11
WGH0922 WGH0922 is online now
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He's 82Redleg's Marine Corps doppelganger.

https://www.heritage.org/staff/dakota-wood
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