SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Law Enforcement

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #521  
Old 3 June 2020, 13:31
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 9,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18C4V View Post
Don't forget about a lenient judicial system in mostly liberal cities and states that allows those two cultures to collide.

I'm sure you've seen habitual offenders get arrested for serious felonies only to see them back on the street on their own recognize and still committing additional felonies?

Things will change when the victim can personally sue the DA, Judge, and City for allowing that to happen.
Yep, things will change when people who have deliberately sought positions of power while also actively seeking to avoid accountability are forced to be personally accountable, and unable to hide behind taxpayer dollars. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #522  
Old 3 June 2020, 13:35
Silverbullet's Avatar
Silverbullet Silverbullet is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bunker
Posts: 16,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
I think it’s also interesting that you point out that you’d be ok. What about the rest of Americans that want to live in peace? What about the Americans that wanted to go see DC this summer?

It’s not about you and your friends, it’s about the damn Republic!
It certainly is about the republic. That's why we can't have cops violate the constitution or kill folks that are defenseless.
Reply With Quote
  #523  
Old 3 June 2020, 13:54
256's Avatar
256 256 is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole crusty bastard View Post
This incident when seen through different eyes has different meanings, just like the Rona crap.

As for striking cops, seems like that would be adding to the problem. Is the Cop Union that strong that it could call for a walk out? Hard to imagine a time when cops just quit.
“National call off” is a joke in the community. As in, “what the hell would the country do without us?”
__________________
It's like I'm playing cards with my brother's kids..
Reply With Quote
  #524  
Old 3 June 2020, 13:55
Rockville Rockville is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VA
Posts: 1,197
lot of data at
NCJRS: National Criminal Justice Reference Service
www.ncjrs.gov

Quote:
Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
I posted direct links to both studies that I referenced.

Also, I said that the data doesn’t support the narrative being pushed. I did not say “no distinction”, so I’d appreciate it if you don’t spin words/claims.
Reply With Quote
  #525  
Old 3 June 2020, 13:57
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 9,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
“National call off” is a joke in the community. As in, “what the hell would the country do without us?”
Settle all accounts.

The actual Americans need to rescind the authority they have delegated to "professionals" as the employees think they're running the show. S/F...Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #526  
Old 3 June 2020, 14:15
Look. Don'tTouch. Look. Don'tTouch. is offline
killjoy
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: West
Posts: 2,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by kosty View Post
Show me those statistics.

As I've researched a little, and blacks people are (on average) twice as likely to get killed by the police, and over the last three years 2.5 times as likely to get shot to death by the police. Maybe my data is crap, so show me.....

refs:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6708348/
https://www.statista.com/chart/5211/...y-police-2016/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/
https://www.statista.com/chart/5211/...y-police-2016/
I see stats tossed around with comparison to population, which I feel is a flawed way to look at it. Regardless of population, it's about total volume of contact.

How many negative police contacts(where the person was breaking the law) do blacks experience compared to other groups? I can not find those stats, but they would be most important numbers to draw a conclusion of how often or how likely a particular group is to die at the hands of police.

Forgive the cartoon example that follows but please try and see my viewpoint here. Example:
Population of purple rabbits is 10,000.
Total contacts with purple rabbits by police = 10.
Total purple rabbits killed by police = 5.
Therefore, the focus is not on 5/10,000, but rather 5/10.

Contrast that with yellow ducks, population 1,000.
Total contacts with yellow ducks and police = 500.
Total deaths of yellow ducks by police = 50.
Rate of death = 1/10

As you see, despite the fact that yellow duck population is lower and total deaths is higher, due to the volume of total contacts, yellow ducks are being killed at a lower rate because only 1/10 contacts result in the death of a yellow duck, compared to 5/10 of purple rabbits.
Reply With Quote
  #527  
Old 3 June 2020, 14:27
CV's Avatar
CV CV is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: US
Posts: 8,823
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
Settle all accounts.

The actual Americans need to rescind the authority they have delegated to "professionals" as the employees think they're running the show. S/F...Ken M
Bingo. It's built into the rules of the game.
__________________
It's a hipster filter. Keeps your kind out. -Jimbo
Reply With Quote
  #528  
Old 3 June 2020, 15:02
smp52 smp52 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: So. Cal
Posts: 1,664
From a psychological perspective...

The country seeing real images of what the South was like in the 50s and 60s through television galvanized support for addressing Jim Crow laws as it genuinely offended the moderate Christian values. Similarly, the cognitive dissonance in the video of a dude, with an officer on his neck, slowly dying in a completely submissive position is jarring and visceral for many and rightly so. People may go through their own stages of denial, anger, displacement, rationalization, projection as any human is capable of.

I mean, this started over $20 counterfeit bucks and a pack of cigarettes; the public at large is right to call out BS on unaccountable authority. Since the birth of this country, we've had a skeptical perspective of authority, and a love/hate relationship with it. The public discourse and creative/destruction is part of the resiliency of our model. If we want absolute security over freedom, that only exists in authoritarian systems resulting in larger blowups (communism, fascism, dictators, monarchies). Its why the first and second amendments are two sides of the same coin, IMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #529  
Old 3 June 2020, 15:56
kosty kosty is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Iowa
Posts: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Look. Don'tTouch. View Post
I see stats tossed around with comparison to population, which I feel is a flawed way to look at it.
I agree that higher criminal activity, even if corresponding to poverty, is at the root of the problem, but that's not what I contested. I disagreed with the contention that Blacks are not being shot at a higher rate than Whites. More whites are shot & killed by the police, but by percentage of each population, the black population is shot at over twice the rate for whites.

* That they suffer/commit murder at a higher rate than whites is hardly debatable - so I agree that they absolutely need the police presence.
* That they are targeted by the police is the consistent testimony of the many highly educated and crime averse African Americans that I know. Here in Iowa, they say, it is worse than in Minneapolis or St. Louis.

The current disparity in criminal activity seems to be fueled by urban black culture, and is closely associated with wealth/poverty and social class. Yet this follows a long history of the dominant culture driving their poverty, and the adoption of a culture that further destabilized their communities.
*Just a generation ago black folks were unable to get loans to buy houses in some/many (?) white neighborhoods, which diminished generational wealth transfer of many families.
*Two generations ago the WWI GI benefits, which created great educational and economic opportunity, were elusive for African Americans to obtain due to overt racism.
*More recently, the white legislators that "gave in" to the urban African American request for tougher laws amidst drug and gang activity should have known that this would only further destabilize the black family and accelerate impoverishment.
*The urban "ghetto's" which allowed black communities to maintain dignity and economic viability was crippled when the more educated/professional blacks abandoning their urban environments, leaving the "ghetto's" without the leadership they needed.

I don't blame most police officers - they have a thankless job in difficult circumstances, and I harbor no personal grudges. But nobody should overlook police departments adopting a "gang" mentality and overlooking repeated abuses by fellow officers.

Like others here (I hope), I mostly blame the politicians who who take advantage of the poor, neglect their education, pander to them with welfare, and then point the finger at "the system" they created.
Reply With Quote
  #530  
Old 3 June 2020, 16:03
AKAPete AKAPete is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 1,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by kosty View Post
.....Like others here (I hope), I mostly blame the politicians who who take advantage of the poor, neglect their education, pander to them with welfare, and then point the finger at "the system" they created.
You're right - but you forgot to add force them into a worthless public education system that is a failure. Neglect is not the word I would use.
Reply With Quote
  #531  
Old 3 June 2020, 16:19
kosty kosty is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Central Iowa
Posts: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAPete View Post
You're right - but you forgot to add force them into a worthless public education system that is a failure. Neglect is not the word I would use.
Truth.
Reply With Quote
  #532  
Old 3 June 2020, 16:33
Front_Sight_Bang's Avatar
Front_Sight_Bang Front_Sight_Bang is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Nevada
Posts: 1,162
The other three officers have now been charged, and Chauvin’s charges have been upgraded a degree. That said, it will never be enough and the rioting/looting will continue. Because reasons and stuff.
__________________
Shit aint funny....
Reply With Quote
  #533  
Old 3 June 2020, 16:47
KS11's Avatar
KS11 KS11 is offline
Reverse Apache Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Here and There
Posts: 3,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
The other three officers have now been charged, and Chauvin’s charges have been upgraded a degree. That said, it will never be enough and the rioting/looting will continue. Because reasons and stuff.
I think they’re intentionally overcharging themselves out of a guilty verdict (at least on the original charge), knowing full well further riots will follow. A conviction on a lesser charge, which probably should have been the original charge, will be spun as a racist system letting an officer walk.
__________________
Twitter/social media isn't real life.
Reply With Quote
  #534  
Old 3 June 2020, 16:56
havok88 havok88 is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: US
Posts: 2,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
I think they’re intentionally overcharging themselves out of a guilty verdict (at least on the original charge), knowing full well further riots will follow. A conviction on a lesser charge, which probably should have been the original charge, will be spun as a racist system letting an officer walk.
Agreed. The only people who will see any sort of win out of this are the people who will have a new flatscreen hanging on their wall.
__________________
"I am afraid that the average American wouldn't recognize an agenda driven story line if Smokey and the Bandit put it in a semi truck and drove it up their ass." - Box
Reply With Quote
  #535  
Old 3 June 2020, 17:50
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
Did...did I do that?
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Green Country, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,217
The other officers were charged with aiding and abetting murder two, which is why they had to upgrade Chauvin.

Is it still possible that he's found guilty of murder three? Does anyone know if they dropped that or the manslaughter? And if he's found guilty of M3 but not Two, what happens to their charges?
__________________
This message is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.
Reply With Quote
  #536  
Old 3 June 2020, 18:20
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 9,029
^ Nope the lawyers and activists(redundant), they always come out with money. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #537  
Old 3 June 2020, 18:23
Jakers Jakers is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Washington State
Posts: 558
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

So...someone with more legal knowledge can maybe explain this...but based on the above, they now have to prove that Chauvin INTENDED to kill Floyd. Unless there is some damning evidence (like on the bodycams) that seems almost impossible based on MPD’s tactics and what video has been released.

I really wanted to give everyone the benefit of doubt, but this is pandering to the mob, with the goal of either further inflaming things (on both left and right), or gaining political support. Given it’s Keith “smack my bitch up” Ellison it’s probably both.

Gonna be a violent summer.
Reply With Quote
  #538  
Old 3 June 2020, 18:33
wowzers wowzers is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
I think they’re intentionally overcharging themselves out of a guilty verdict (at least on the original charge), knowing full well further riots will follow. A conviction on a lesser charge, which probably should have been the original charge, will be spun as a racist system letting an officer walk.
In your opinion will the case even go to trial and finish before the election?
Reply With Quote
  #539  
Old 3 June 2020, 18:53
KS11's Avatar
KS11 KS11 is offline
Reverse Apache Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Here and There
Posts: 3,078
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakers View Post
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/609.19

So...someone with more legal knowledge can maybe explain this...but based on the above, they now have to prove that Chauvin INTENDED to kill Floyd. Unless there is some damning evidence (like on the bodycams) that seems almost impossible based on MPD’s tactics and what video has been released.

I really wanted to give everyone the benefit of doubt, but this is pandering to the mob, with the goal of either further inflaming things (on both left and right), or gaining political support. Given it’s Keith “smack my bitch up” Ellison it’s probably both.

Gonna be a violent summer.
The first paragraph, yes to all. They won't be able to prove up "intent to kill."

Disagree on your second paragraph. I don't think he's pandering to the crowd. I think he KNOWS they'll never convict on Murder 2, which will lead to more riots. I think he's overcharging himself out of a conviction on purpose, with the intention of making things worse. You're forgetting that they don't want race relations smoothed out. They want division and chaos. As soon as the jury returns a lesser charge (Manslaughter, Murder 3, whatever MN has...), they'll announce that they just couldn't overcome an obviously racist system, apologize that Justice for Floyd(TM) wasn't obtained, and imply that people should hit the streets again to try to get it themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wowzers View Post
In your opinion will the case even go to trial and finish before the election?
No idea how quickly things move up there. Normally I wouldn't think so, but who knows in this case. If they think they can influence the election with it, they'll sure try.
__________________
Twitter/social media isn't real life.
Reply With Quote
  #540  
Old 3 June 2020, 19:04
wowzers wowzers is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
No idea how quickly things move up there. Normally I wouldn't think so, but who knows in this case. If they think they can influence the election with it, they'll sure try.
It sure seems like it would be a fast conclusion. At this point the election looks pretty up in the air. Seems like a dicey move on the Dems part to overcharge and not get a conviction and then be the ones potentially sitting at the helm.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:32.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2020