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  #21  
Old 26 May 2020, 20:43
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Originally Posted by meatpaws View Post
Damn. Every trainer in my area cautions against against placing knees above the shoulders for this very reason. SMDH.
EXACTLY. Cuff first. Second, knee between the shoulder blades, and watch for positional asphixia.


What I was saw on 10 the minute video was not necessary.
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  #22  
Old 26 May 2020, 20:47
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EXACTLY. Cuff first. Second, knee between the shoulder blades, and watch for positional asphixia.


What I was saw on 10 the minute video was not necessary.
There are stress positions that are not as harsh.
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  #23  
Old 26 May 2020, 20:59
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I mean, the guys hands were cuffed.

Maybe, MAYBE you could reason the first 15 seconds of that was justified depending on what happened before the video started playing, but yeah, that's fucking murder.
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  #24  
Old 26 May 2020, 21:17
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I thought murder was illegal. Why are they fired and not arrested?
Damn, dude. It just happened last night and they were fired today. That's an extremely quick flash-to-bang on something that stemmed from a Use of Force incident. It looks pretty fucked up to me and I suspect that *after an investigation* one or more of them will face charges.

When it's only 24 hours later, they've already been fired (not admin leave, but fired), and you still come across as complaining that it's not being handled correctly...well, that doesn't help LE want to police itself very much.
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  #25  
Old 26 May 2020, 21:25
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I thought murder was illegal. Why are they fired and not arrested?
If they are no longer employees, they are no longer indemnified.

It is a big deal that they were fired and not placed on admin leave. That means the department, union, etc will be providing no resources to them.
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  #26  
Old 26 May 2020, 22:30
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The wrecklesness and brutality of this can easily be demonstrated by any BJJ blue belt. Seems the department realizes that.
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  #27  
Old 26 May 2020, 23:55
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Iíve thus far seen A LOT of people commenting their outrage online that the officer(s) have not been arrested for murder. Happens almost every time we see these incidents. Well, the law of unintended consequences is a bitch. Go ahead and arrest them for murder within twenty four hours. Your investigation and the subsequent results will suck out loud, potentially resulting in an acquittal. Then the same people will bitch about the acquittal when had they been patient enough to allow a thorough investigation, you could probably have secured a conviction. While in detectives I always told people I can do a ďgoodĒ job on their case, or a ďfastĒ one. You donít get both.
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  #28  
Old 27 May 2020, 01:38
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Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
I’ve thus far seen A LOT of people commenting their outrage online that the officer(s) have not been arrested for murder. Happens almost every time we see these incidents. Well, the law of unintended consequences is a bitch. Go ahead and arrest them for murder within twenty four hours. Your investigation and the subsequent results will suck out loud, potentially resulting in an acquittal. Then the same people will bitch about the acquittal when had they been patient enough to allow a thorough investigation, you could probably have secured a conviction. While in detectives I always told people I can do a “good” job on their case, or a “fast” one. You don’t get both.
That does make a lot of sense and I certainly hope these knuckleheads are prosecuted thoroughly. It’s hard not to have an initial outrage/emotional response to such disgust. If in that crowd I would have been tempted to drop kick that prick in the chest to save the guy and suck up the consequences later. But that’s just how I’m wired.

Time will tell the whole story. Everyone is lawyering up at this point. Unfortunately, it causes long term if not irreparable damage between the various local government agencies and police departments and creates a helluva tougher environment for a good LEO to work in.
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  #29  
Old 27 May 2020, 02:07
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I find it hard to believe four officers were involved and not a single one did his job. I admit I'm not an LEO but I'm pretty sure that isn't their job and yet they seemed almost bored like it was an everyday thing to them.
As a former LE, I agree with your comments. It was par for the course after wrestling with some violent fucker, once he/she was controlled, some/all involved would assess what they and everyone else, were doing, and adjust.

I have once, exactly once, put my knee on someone above the shoulders to help control them. But it was on their head, and once they (a 50kg woman believe it or not - high on ice), was controlled and cuffed, my knee immediately came off.

On face value alone, this looks bad.
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  #30  
Old 27 May 2020, 08:25
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He was pissed because they just tussled (badge is obviously knocked around) and he was exerting his manliness, no way to defend his actions. Tragic all the way around.
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  #31  
Old 27 May 2020, 09:20
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Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
Go ahead and arrest them for murder within twenty four hours. Your investigation and the subsequent results will suck out loud, potentially resulting in an acquittal. Then the same people will bitch about the acquittal when had they been patient enough to allow a thorough investigation, you could probably have secured a conviction.
From reading about the Freddie Gray incident in Baltimore, it sounds like the City jumped the gun in prosecuting and wound up with no convictions. Is the analogy close?
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  #32  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:01
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Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
I’ve thus far seen A LOT of people commenting their outrage online that the officer(s) have not been arrested for murder. Happens almost every time we see these incidents. Well, the law of unintended consequences is a bitch. Go ahead and arrest them for murder within twenty four hours. Your investigation and the subsequent results will suck out loud, potentially resulting in an acquittal. Then the same people will bitch about the acquittal when had they been patient enough to allow a thorough investigation, you could probably have secured a conviction. While in detectives I always told people I can do a “good” job on their case, or a “fast” one. You don’t get both.
People on here would bitch if you hung those cops before sunset with a new rope.
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  #33  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:07
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So?

I assume you LEO's would be cool if a non LEO wasn't arrested arrested and charged with murder if the act was witnessed by other LEO's and the video showing the murder was public.

If so, cool, if not, then you're endorsing a double standard.
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  #34  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:16
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I changed my mind.
I'm going to reserve judgement.
Multiple videos from multiple angles isn't enough evidence to make an informed decision.

Lord knows, in a country led by politicians that are actively applying legal pressure to people for not surrendering their rights, the last thing I want to do is jump the gun and make a rash judgement. There simply must be more to the story than "bully abuses his authority" - for all we know, that guy may have actually died after testing positive for COVID-19
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  #35  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:21
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
So?

I assume you LEO's would be cool if a non LEO wasn't arrested arrested and charged with murder if the act was witnessed by other LEO's and the video showing the murder was public.

If so, cool, if not, then you're endorsing a double standard.
Iím absolutely cool with it, circumstance depending like anything else. We sit on investigations (including homicides) all the time. I canít speak for other agencies but I never pulled the trigger on an arrest until I had my investigation dialed in dead to rights. In my opinion you canít afford to screw something like that up by rushing it, and I would certainly never rush/compromise any investigation just to appease public opinion.
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  #36  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:27
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Originally Posted by Box View Post
The man dies from a "medical incident" and its going to be investigated by the FBI. Everything should work out juuuust fine.
The FBI excels at fucking local cops. In fact I would say they relish it. If there's fucking needed they will get it done. But in most cases they stand back, let the locals do their thing, and decide if they have a winner before proceeding.
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  #37  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:31
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The circumstances we're talking about are this specific incident.

I highly doubt a non LEO killing someone, which was captured on video right in front of LEO's wouldn't be arrested immediately.
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  #38  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:43
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Unhappy

Shocked really shocked but not surprising .... No reason this should of happened and the sad thing is this won't be the last death like this. Heartbreaking to watch a man be killed on video, while those sworn to serve and protect him let their brother in blue do it before their eyes.
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  #39  
Old 27 May 2020, 10:44
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What'd this guy do, sell un-taxed cigarettes? Don't worry, these guys have a good shot at walking (and staying employed).

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  #40  
Old 27 May 2020, 11:01
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
The circumstances we're talking about are this specific incident.

I highly doubt a non LEO killing someone, which was captured on video right in front of LEO's wouldn't be arrested immediately.
Still not apples to apples though. Citizen A kills citizen B, captured on video, seen by witnesses etc, and barring any self defense issues? Sure, they probably get arrested immediately. Because in that case there is no legal authority for any force on behalf of the suspect. In this specific case, the officers acting in official capacity have legal authority to detain suspects and investigate whatever call for service they are responding to. In addition to that they have legal authority to use force against a resisting suspect to overcome said resistance based on the reasonableness standard. Now, throw in a suspect who will likely have a dirty toxicology report (pure supposition based on experience) and potential pre-existing medical issues and now thereís also an excited delirium argument. So you have to prove that what happened was not only outside of established case law governing use of force, but also prove that their actions directly caused the death and not something like an excited delirium event. Itís a threshold issue of legal authority. Rush a case like this and any decent defense attorney knocks it out of the park. Thatís all Iím saying.
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