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  #41  
Old 20 September 2018, 14:59
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
WW2 would have gone a lot better for the USA if the Nazis and Commies were allowed to bleed each other white while we stomped on the Japs.

Two decades ago, the same shitlib media who are panty wetting over Russia today, were lauding commie Russia genius and long term thinking. "Russia is playing chess and USA is playing checkers." and other FUD demoralization propaganda etc etc.

There's some validity there, American's need to pause and assess long term issues and outcomes before committing to BS like Syria or any other overseas entanglements. S/F....Ken M
I sometimes wonder also if we may have been better not fighting Germany or Japan. Maybe better off if the Nazis left to rule over Europe and Russia. And better if Japan ruled over Asia.

Yeah, Imperial Japan and Nazis bad .... of course. But was the Cold War, the reeducation camps, Vietnam, Cambodia, Red guards and cultural revolution, etc...any better or even maybe worse? Maybe is defeating Germany and Japan actually created more bloodshed-in WWII and the aftermath. Leave Germany and Japan alone, though they were bloody, been a lot less American, European, Asian lives spared long term.

Was Hitler really any better than our Allie Stalin? Was the Emperor of Japan worse than Mao or later Pol Pot?

Maybe a discussion for a new thread.
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  #42  
Old 20 September 2018, 15:08
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Most of us don't believe, other than the obvious CT mission, that we need to be in Syria. Am I right on that?

Left completely unchecked, we could get another beehive of jihad along with the future Euro WW3 after all of them end up over there.

It would be great if we could count on the Russians, shit I heard even China is jumping in, to clean up Syria, maybe rebuild etc. Would be great, but we know that's not in ol'Putin/Assad's interest either. Chem attack or no, I see that some amount of boots on the ground could happen. I don't see that as being a MIC ploy, just a cold fact. Of course I could be wrong about most of that, but you know, history.
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  #43  
Old 20 September 2018, 15:30
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Most of us don't believe, other than the obvious CT mission, that we need to be in Syria. Am I right on that?

Left completely unchecked, we could get another beehive of jihad along with the future Euro WW3 after all of them end up over there.
There are "beehives" of "jihad" all over the planet - always have been. The idea that "we" need to go leave American blood on foreign soil acting as "beekeepers", is a myth sold to the the super-patriots. When they get Navy's and Air Force's - let me know. If you don't want "9/11"'s - quit being amateur dumb-fucks who can't bother to search the San Diego Phone Book for shit like:

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Al-Hazmi, Nawaf M. 6401 Mount Ada Rd. 858-279-5919
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  #44  
Old 20 September 2018, 15:59
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Most of us don't believe, other than the obvious CT mission, that we need to be in Syria. Am I right on that?
Why obvious? I could care less if the Syrians bomb each other until doomsday; them doing so isn't worth an American soldier's life. How about we just don't let them come to the United States? Doesn't that serve the same purpose for us? If every country refused the entry of Syrians until they got their shit together, it seems like the problem would solve itself.

I guess I'm bitter because it looks to me like all the American deaths between 9/11 and now haven't achieved much lasting good. Hell, even blood for oil was a scam, as gas is still over $2.50 a gallon here in NoVa.
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  #45  
Old 20 September 2018, 16:00
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Aren't the mistakes of previous administrations and intel agencies part of our collective "lessons learned"?

What if there is no CT mission, and we just left the region? You don't think they can ever strike over here again? Are you just saying, maybe they will or maybe they won't and it's pointless to send any troops over there? I'm kind of confused about what you mean.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/w...raq-mosul.html


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michael...llowers-in-us/
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  #46  
Old 20 September 2018, 17:08
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What if there is no CT mission, and we just left the region? You don't think they can ever strike over here again? Are you just saying, maybe they will or maybe they won't and it's pointless to send any troops over there? I'm kind of confused about what you mean.
I mean there's nothing in Syria worth the life of an American soldier. I could give a fuck less if they slaughter each other. We keep sending young Americans over there with no discernible improvement in our national security. Many of these young Americans die, and just one American death is a failure in my eyes. If we prevent anyone from Syria from entering America, and keep out everyone who's bonafides we cannot verify, the chances of their problems making it to American shores are next to zero. Yes, it's horrible all the innocent people dying over there, but that's not our problem to solve, especially when it means Americans dying.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-violence. If the Chicoms or NKs land at Virginia Beach next summer, our son and I will load our guns and ammo into his truck and head down to fight off the invaders, but I'm tired of American men and women going over to the Middle East to die for nothing.

What value do you think has accrued to America in the last 15 years of our involvement in the Middle East? How have all of the American deaths there improved our security?

You want to know what really scares me? Our son wants to join the military after he graduates college next year. I'm afraid he'll be sent to some foreign shitbox, get killed or seriously injured, and none of our national leadership will be able to tell me why.
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  #47  
Old 20 September 2018, 18:02
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GR: I'm with you on all points. My kids will be close to that age in a few years, same story. I'm especially with you on not worth an American life. Especially, especially with you on the Norks or ChiComs invading Virginia.

Other than smashing the Taliban and AQ for 9/11, I don't think the wars made us 7,000+ deaths worth safer.

I do think, both AQ, and later Saddam would have tried, and maybe succeeded at another attack after 9/11. I could be very wrong on Iraq, who knows, but AQ was definitely ready for more. Saddam wished he could do something.

If we enforce the chemical weapon threat, or if we send guys to CT/drone jihads in Syria, I'm 100% in the tank for that. Not for a full scale nation building, BTW, I'm talkin air power, limited strikes etc.

You are right about not being worth U.S. lives and letting them destroy each other, I just don't see it happening that easy. I wish I had more of the information the decision makers have, maybe a lot of it is BS. I hope there is more than just what we see on TV/internet.
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  #48  
Old 21 September 2018, 00:55
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Originally Posted by nofear View Post
Assad has a hot educated wife and doesn't cover her with a trash bag, in a region that finds that kind of thing horrific.

That alone has made me wonder for a few years now if he is truly as evil as the media portrays him as being.

It's a very shallow view, I appreciate that, but without personally seeing him in action, all I have to go on is the media....who I constantly find disappointing.
A bad guy for sure. But is he the bad guy we need to worry about?
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  #49  
Old 21 September 2018, 07:25
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
I mean there's nothing in Syria worth the life of an American soldier. I could give a fuck less if they slaughter each other. We keep sending young Americans over there with no discernible improvement in our national security. Many of these young Americans die, and just one American death is a failure in my eyes. If we prevent anyone from Syria from entering America, and keep out everyone who's bonafides we cannot verify, the chances of their problems making it to American shores are next to zero. Yes, it's horrible all the innocent people dying over there, but that's not our problem to solve, especially when it means Americans dying.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-violence. If the Chicoms or NKs land at Virginia Beach next summer, our son and I will load our guns and ammo into his truck and head down to fight off the invaders, but I'm tired of American men and women going over to the Middle East to die for nothing.

What value do you think has accrued to America in the last 15 years of our involvement in the Middle East? How have all of the American deaths there improved our security?

You want to know what really scares me? Our son wants to join the military after he graduates college next year. I'm afraid he'll be sent to some foreign shitbox, get killed or seriously injured, and none of our national leadership will be able to tell me why.
Good post.

Defending our freedoms and liberties of directly threatened ? Yes. Defending ourselves and our loved ones from violence? Of course.

The elements that to both currently are domestic. I am more worried about the heroin/meth/ opioids epedemic, Chicago gang bangers, Mexican gangs, and far left liberals, than I am anything overseas. That is where the fight is. That is why I CCW.

Don't see too much reason for having someone's son get killed overseas for the likes of Dick Cheney and his neo-con establisment buddies.
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  #50  
Old 21 September 2018, 12:38
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Good post.

Defending our freedoms and liberties of directly threatened ? Yes. Defending ourselves and our loved ones from violence? Of course.

The elements that to both currently are domestic. I am more worried about the heroin/meth/ opioids epedemic, Chicago gang bangers, Mexican gangs, and far left liberals, than I am anything overseas. That is where the fight is. That is why I CCW.

Don't see too much reason for having someone's son get killed overseas for the likes of Dick Cheney and his neo-con establisment buddies.
I have three sons, two are now 18 or close to it. There was nothing I wanted to do more when I was on AD than to go downrange and blow shit up while being shot at. I loved every minute of my deployments with the exception of the one night we needed to call in dust-off. Now my sons have become enamored with that lifestyle (thank you American Sniper, Lone Survivor, Hurt Locker, 12 Strong, etc. ) and are seriously considering enlistment. I love my country but I cannot bring myself to encourage military service right now. I will support them but I will not be walking them down to the recruiters office (as mentioned above, maybe USCG).

Iím sick of this shit and neither the hippie-dippy, peace loving Ds nor the hawkish Rs will do a damn think about this nonsense. And Iíll be damned if one of my sons are going to die because of some contrived, cause du jour invented by the MSM and MIC.

I canít stand most hippies but I sure miss the days when they were screeching at politicians to bring our sons home (although I donít miss the way they welcomed home our troops). Wonder what happened to thatÖ
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  #51  
Old 21 September 2018, 13:37
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This nonsense of Roosevelt purposefully setting up Pearl Harbor as the casus belli for getting us into Peal Harbor have a piss poor understanding of history. If Roosevelt had pulled every ship out of Pearl Harbor on December 6, there would still have been war on December 8. If you don't know what happened on that date then you shouldn't be commenting.
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  #52  
Old 21 September 2018, 13:59
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Originally Posted by CAVmedic View Post
Aren't the mistakes of previous administrations and intel agencies part of our collective "lessons learned"?

What if there is no CT mission, and we just left the region? You don't think they can ever strike over here again? Are you just saying, maybe they will or maybe they won't and it's pointless to send any troops over there? I'm kind of confused about what you mean.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/w...raq-mosul.html


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michael...llowers-in-us/
I equate it to the right amount of the appropriate strategy. D's tend to under respond = ergo Bill Clinton. R's may tend to over respond. The point is somewhere in the Universe there is a balance of the right amount of each type of intervention. There is no modern example of where we have done this type of intervention effectively. We have drastically over intervened in many Middle Eastern countries.

I also think we have a flawed strategy. Its like my kids having cars. If they pay for them, they appreciate and work to keep it clean and maintained. If I buy it, they are like fuck it, so what, Dad will fix it. We fought for our independence. When we hand it to someone else, they don't have the appreciation for what was sacrificed to provide that freedom.

I further think Democracy is the most powerful opiate on the planet. You cannot take a population having lived under a dictator (read, never had access to the opiate) and then put them in a position where they can use it to make their life better. Its an over dose and just really never applies the desired effect, at least not for the masses in general.

OK, Now back on subject.
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  #53  
Old 21 September 2018, 18:46
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There was nothing I wanted to do more when I was on AD than to go downrange and blow shit up while being shot at.
Same here, but it's a lot different IMO when it's my life and when it's my son's life. I know, but that's how I feel.
Quote:
Now my sons have become enamored with that lifestyle (thank you American Sniper, Lone Survivor, Hurt Locker, 12 Strong, etc. ) and are seriously considering enlistment.
I once complained to my wife about "why can't he want to be an insurance agent or accountant safely working on the fourth floor of some office building?" and her reply was "and how many people like that has he ever been around (dumbass)?" (she didn't say "dumbass"; it was an implied "dumbass").

Her point being that he has lived his entire life around Marines, cops, soldiers, SOCNETers; of course he sees those as the people to emulate.
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  #54  
Old 21 September 2018, 21:45
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Gray Rhino, lots of "action" jobs outside of the military with a purpose and good mission: Coast Guard, Firefighter, Conservation Officer, Police Officer, mountaineer/Explorer, wildlife biologist, missionary in third world, forest fire fighting crews/smoke jumper.
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  #55  
Old 26 September 2018, 13:35
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Gray Rhino, lots of "action" jobs outside of the military with a purpose and good mission: Coast Guard, Firefighter, Conservation Officer, Police Officer, mountaineer/Explorer, wildlife biologist, missionary in third world, forest fire fighting crews/smoke jumper.
And I'll add EMT, Paramedic, ER Nurse/Doc...
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  #56  
Old 27 September 2018, 17:28
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Agreed Ironerik.

Plus after looking at this farce regarding Kavanaugh - no way is it worth some young American man or women dying overseas for these congressional pukes. Go fight and die in your own wars.
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  #57  
Old 27 September 2018, 20:19
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lots of "action" jobs outside of the military with a purpose and good mission.
I agree, but I'm not the one that needs convincing.

We're trying to let him make his own (informed) decisions.
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  #58  
Old 27 September 2018, 21:46
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My best friend's oldest leaves for the Marines in Oct. Intel MOS. I can tell my buddy isn't thrilled, but I personally doubt there's going to be anything GWOT comparable going on anytime soon.

I want to add: Think about yourself at that age. You knew about VN, how shitty WW2 and Korea was. You joined anyway. We need soldiers, and these young kids deserve a lot of respect for "carrying the torch". I wouldn't try to push a motivated young stud into nursing or office work to keep them safe. Might make them miserable, not military miserable, miserable in a bad way. LOL
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  #59  
Old 28 September 2018, 07:44
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I want to add: Think about yourself at that age. You knew about VN, how shitty WW2 and Korea was. You joined anyway. We need soldiers, and these young kids deserve a lot of respect for "carrying the torch". I wouldn't try to push a motivated young stud into nursing or office work to keep them safe. Might make them miserable, not military miserable, miserable in a bad way. LOL
I was a f'n moron "at that age". And I read every book on Vietnam - still no clue of the abortion that caused it because there was barely Cable TV, much less LBJ and Nixon recordings a click away, or declassified NSA documents. Probably still would have joined though - Arlington is full of "I'm bulletproof, nothing will happen to me, Mom" dudes. That's why old guys like some of us in here, need to crawl up .govs ass every chance we get - we're the "check" on teenage stupidity and congressional malfeasance.
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