SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > The Lounge

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 20 December 2003, 19:52
okami1 okami1 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: roadmarching in a bathrobe
Posts: 1,183
Fairly New Guy here

Quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I see Chavez as a Castro-wannabe. I think he might be frustrated by not having had a revolution to carry him to the top. I think he is a simple minded populist, same cut as Lula (but not as smart), Guterrez in Ecuador (but smarter), etc. There is definitely a wave of populists being elected.
I am interested to hear what you guys think the future holds for Venezuela and Colombia, having to deal with groups like the FARC and others gaining ground. What do you think the political future of these countries will be?
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 20 December 2003, 19:57
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
Check the Colombia and Venezuela threads and come back and tell us.
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 20 December 2003, 22:00
okami1 okami1 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: roadmarching in a bathrobe
Posts: 1,183
It's a revolutionary party and everyone's invited

Before I start mouthing off about where the political future of these countries lie, I would like to better understand the past.

My initial observations and comments...

This quote from the Venezuela thread seems to epitomize the direction and indications coming from within VE.

"I think that there will be a succession of coups, confrontations and insurrectional strikes. I mean that there is a confrontation over the political regime, over oil, but the two currents that face each other are both neoliberal, even if they represent different tendencies. On the one hand there is the bloc that could be called the Fourth Republic, composed of the politicians of the traditional right, the bosses and their media, some putschist military elements and some 'moderate' trades unionists [social democratic or social Christian] in the CTV federation. This bloc supports an old and classic neoliberalism in the distribution of wealth. On the other hand, there is a neoliberalism that is much more advanced in its philosophical conception of capitalism: this is the bloc that supports the government. What is lacking here is a third force, revolutionary and patriotic, capable of confronting the power of the bourgeoisie and imperialism."

Chavez seems to have embraced the revolutionary ideologies put forth by Bolivar and Che, and implements them on a somewhat effective level, but it seems that he is more concerned with the bones of it rather than the meat. That is to say, he is providing an outward appearance of following in the noble cause of Castro's struggle against imperialism, while at the same time tacitly obtaining support for his causes from the "imperialists" themselves by maintaining ongoing trade relationships through his control of the PDVSA. The fact that the CEO of the PDVSA was a guerilla under the command of Ponce, is an excellent demonstration of the party's adherence to Cuban revolutionary doctrine, but at the same time would indicate a straying from it by the acceptance of support (i.e. $$$) from the "enemy". Am I way off here?

While Chavez has openly followed Cuba's example, his close ties with Fidelito would suggest that his overall purpose is to institute the type of Socialist reforms that Cuba has. The most glaring difference seems to be the fact that VE has a national product vital to not only the stability of its own economy, but important to the maintenance of other players as well. Cuba did not have this same type of chip in the big game.

With VE's support of the FARC, the ELN, and the birth of the FBL, falling in line with the LATAM socialist path, one question I have has to do with the murder of Edgar Patino, who Chavez supporters claim was assassinated by the ELN. If the Chavez government is providing refuge for these groups, why would they take out a vocal supporter of his regime? Given the fact that in the province where it took place it could have been anyone, but it still remains to be wondered, why would there be fighting amongst the ELN and nationalist Chavez supporters? If Chavez is really a friend to the FARC and ELN by providing them with training sites inside of VE, it makes you think twice about the real negotiations going on between the CNE and the ELN/FARC.

It also occurs to me, that as the pressure has risen inside of VE both politically and socially, that turning to support of terrorist elements both within and without of the country proper is something that is looked upon by the Chavistas as a possible means of strengthening their own cause. This is a double edged sword, whereby someone mentioned in the VE thread that they seek to provide just enough terror to empower the government, but not too much so as to provoke a backlash against it. This also, as you said, may push the outside pressures (the US) from providing indirect intervention to participation in more direct efforts. And rightfully so in my mind.

Am I in the ballpark here? Before I go on and stray farther from the reality, what am I missing from this assessment?

Going back to read more...
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 23 December 2003, 06:11
PSYWAR 1-0 PSYWAR 1-0 is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: NDANER
Posts: 587
Quote:
Originally posted by PSYWAR 1-0
The Farc have stated that Americans are now targets, dosent matter who they are, AD, Contractor, Emb ect. The BBC grenade attack was just the opening salvo. I think we will see attempts to overrun bases where Plan Colombia and MTT pax are based in the new year.
I was a week and a half early on the overun attempt..................
__________________
Soy el rey del lagarto, yo puedo hacer cualquier cosa
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 24 December 2003, 16:04
Roguish Lawyer's Avatar
Roguish Lawyer Roguish Lawyer is offline
Do I smell chum?
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 196
Quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
2) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson
Jeez, Sneaky! It's going to take me a year to read this monster! :D

That's OK, why start with something introductory when you can just go right to the definitive treatise, right? LOL
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 24 December 2003, 21:09
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
If it was easy, it wouldn't be worth having. That's why those green and tan (should still be black) berets are "earned not issued".

Merry Christmas counselor.
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 26 December 2003, 00:11
d3b2 d3b2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: aboard the U.S.S. Curious
Posts: 37
head man for cleansings

Quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Che was headman for the cleansings done after the revolution. Yeah, he would comitt atrocities.

I don't hate him.
Sneaky SF Dude, hi, I am doing some inquiry into Ernesto Che Guevara. Until recently I thought my inquiry was balanced, but discussions on this bulletin board are giving me pause. Could I benefit from your previous research? Specifically, I would like to know which of the four books that you have recommended talk about atrocities/cleansings committed by ECG, or if you have some other source. Thanks for any help.

d3b2
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 26 December 2003, 00:46
Dark Helmet's Avatar
Dark Helmet Dark Helmet is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 11,012
This is somewhat off topic, but about a year ago my wife played Eva peron in the musical Evita. Go here to see a photo of her standing next to the guy that played Che (second photo). Last photo on the far right of that series shows her and "Che" partying it up after one of the performances (no worries, he's gay as a three dollar bill). She's wearing a wig (Eva was a brunette in her youth). Our son is in the third picture in that series. Her hair was blonde then, and much longer.

The guy that played Che did a ton of research on the guy for his character, and the deeper he dug, the more interesting it got, for sure....I learned quite a bit that I did not previously know.

Back to your regular programming.....
__________________
All Hail the Helmet!

SGT A/1/75 86-89
Ranger Class 13-87

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children will have peace." - Thomas Paine
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 26 December 2003, 10:46
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
Re: head man for cleansings

Quote:
Originally posted by d3b2
Sneaky SF Dude, hi, I am doing some inquiry into Ernesto Che Guevara. Until recently I thought my inquiry was balanced, but discussions on this bulletin board are giving me pause. Could I benefit from your previous research? Specifically, I would like to know which of the four books that you have recommended talk about atrocities/cleansings committed by ECG, or if you have some other source. Thanks for any help.

d3b2
The information is out there, but you have to dig deep. A lot of it went un reported becuase it would dispell the myth.
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 13 January 2004, 02:56
d3b2 d3b2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: aboard the U.S.S. Curious
Posts: 37
still digging

still digging to shatter the myth.

This book Che Guevara : The Revolutionary Life is very good reading so far. Its interesting to read about the Truman administration lobbying for mutual defense treaties, the Rio treaty, and "panamericanismo" as a salve against Soviet Communism. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so now I am wondering if communism is still a big theme in terms of Castro trying to forment support for insurgencies, and how much a perceived threat of non-soviet communism still plays into anti-insugency policies, or cracking down on the left.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 13 January 2004, 03:05
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
Hint: look at what they said (Castro/Guevara) then look at what actually happened in Cuba.

They aren't communists. Didn't even claim to be before 1960.
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 13 January 2004, 03:33
okami1 okami1 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: roadmarching in a bathrobe
Posts: 1,183
Reform

Che and Fidel were leaning more towards an Agrarian reform philosophy when they began the revolution, is this incorrect? It seemed as if their involvement with the Soviets and Soviet communism was more a result of Che's urging and the desire to have the industrial and economic backing to stand up to the USA. This was something I got when reading about that time period in this book.
__________________
Less talking
More PT
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 13 January 2004, 09:41
ratamojada ratamojada is offline
****
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: NoVA
Posts: 379
If I remember correctly their was even some interesting talks with the Chinese and Castro near the end of the revolution which sparked even more interest by the Soviets. The Soviets were scared of a potential Maoist influence in their otherwise Soviet ridden area. Castro was/is simply an oppotunist, and Che was just his misguided attack dog.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 13 January 2004, 11:43
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
I'm talking about the actual conduct of the revolution. You guys are way to strategic. What is the basic doctrine of Marxist revolution? What group (class) is the key?
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 13 January 2004, 12:28
d3b2 d3b2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: aboard the U.S.S. Curious
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
I'm talking about the actual conduct of the revolution. You guys are way to strategic. What is the basic doctrine of Marxist revolution? What group (class) is the key?
class strugle - the worker.

someone else can answer about post-rev cuba.. I'm not that far yet.

I guess you are implying that the actual conduct of the revolution i.e. the tactics (and potentially even the aims and goals) are completely different than envisioned in Marx or Mao, or whoever else were giving inspiration to Che.

good point, that even the U.S. may not have viewed it as a Soviet-Communist threat.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 13 January 2004, 12:41
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
Right, the worker. Political indoctrination is more important than military action. You have to prepare the masses, usually for years before initiating military action so they will rise up. The Party is dominant and sets strategy. The objective conditions must be in place.

Castro actually fought with the Party in Cuba and LATAM in general. He made the Party subordinate to the military side. Called them cowards. He started changing his tone in 1968 - what happened in '67? Debray changed hs tone as well.

The US put an arms embargo on Batista.

Despite the ramnce novels, most of the fighting and dying in Cuba was done in the cities, not the Sierra. There was no "Rising Up" in the rural areas to surround the cities.

Batista fell because:
1) A corrupt putrid rotten regime
2) Nobody helped him
3) Castro maintained his personal moral while Batista gave up
4) Batistas military knew nothing about counter-insurgency
5) The intellectuals and land owners helped Castro
6) Castro had a dedicated core group

I could have other thrown Batista with half a Girl Scout Troop, a platoon from the Salvation Army, and a phrench flute player.
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 13 January 2004, 23:20
Surf n Turf Surf n Turf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Back in the woods
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
1) Guerrilla Warfare - Che
2) Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life by Jon Lee Anderson
3) Companero : The Life and Death of Che Guevara by Jorge G. Castaneda
4) The Diary of Che Guevara: The Secret Papers of a Revolutionary by Che Guevara
Sneaky,
Finished #3 Companero: The life and Death of Che Guevera / Castaneda just before Christmas - good book, well researched
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 13 January 2004, 23:24
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
Good job. Anything surprise you?
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 14 January 2004, 07:51
Surf n Turf Surf n Turf is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Back in the woods
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally posted by Sneaky SF Dude
Good job. Anything surprise you?
Sneaky,
Yes - The treatment of his mother. Even though she was on the far side of the angels, (and birthed and tutored an incompetent, inept revolutionary, that was pure evil), you donít turn a dying woman away from a hospital in her final hours, in terrible pain. At least shoot her up with some morphine before you send her on her journey to the river Styx
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 14 January 2004, 14:13
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
NEW TO SOCNET
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Blocking Jimbo's Access To MY
Posts: 3,126
Bogota Mayor: Castro's Health Declining

Bogota Mayor: Castro's Health Declining
34 minutes ago

BOGOTA, Colombia - Weeks after meeting with Fidel Castro during a vacation in Cuba, Bogota's mayor said Wednesday the 77-year-old Cuban leader's health appeared to be deteriorating.

"He seemed very sick to me," Luis Eduardo Garzon, a former communist union organizer, told Caracol Radio. "You could tell he had physical limitations, especially in his speech."

Rumors about Castro's health circulate regularly, especially in the Cuban exile community. But he has not had any known serious illnesses and remains energetic for a man his age, recently speaking for eight hours at a meeting of Cuba's parliament.

Garzon, who met with Castro in December before taking office Jan. 1, said Cuba has made significant advances in the fields of education and health but that he was disappointed with the revolution there.

"One expects debate ... but in Cuba, everything is driven and controlled by one party," Garzon said. "That's not right. I have always said there should be no dictatorships, neither from the left nor the right."

Castro has been in power for 45 years, making him the world's longest-ruling head of government.

Garzon took office with a pledge to combat poverty in the capital city of 7 million. He has vowed to oppose some of hardline President Alvaro Uribe's more controversial tactics in the government's campaign to crush a leftist, four-decade rebel insurgency.

_____________________________________

Well DAMN! Now I gotta pick a new one.
__________________
Go away. Give yourself some peace. - Cass 12/03

The US Constitution is not a suicide pact.

If you miss your ex frequently, consider better optics for your rifle.

"The baby will be slippery, if you drop it don't stare, PICK IT UP !!!" - OB/GYN Wisdom
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:07.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2018