SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > The Lounge

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1161  
Old 12 August 2019, 13:29
btq96r's Avatar
btq96r btq96r is offline
Calix Meus Inebrians
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Improving my Foxhole
Posts: 3,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlwithaGlock View Post
This should have been done a LOOOONG time ago. I imagine that there is a complete meltdown in the ranks of USCIS as we speak.
I need to find the time to read up on this, but I can't imagine a benefit to a rule change that punishes farm workers and construction laborers who are actually here legally. Given that we need to have a conversation about how to shift that bloc from illegal to legal entry, this rule on its surface seems counterproductive to that.
__________________
Moderation is for Canadians.
Reply With Quote
  #1162  
Old 12 August 2019, 13:38
Keganswar Keganswar is online now
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Behind enemy lines NY
Posts: 1,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post
I need to find the time to read up on this, but I can't imagine a benefit to a rule change that punishes farm workers and construction laborers who are actually here legally. Given that we need to have a conversation about how to shift that bloc from illegal to legal entry, this rule on its surface seems counterproductive to that.
In what way? Unemployment insurance? Seems like a rule that should have been in place already if the government acted with any common sense, or with some fiscal responsibility. Other peoples money and all that jazz.
Reply With Quote
  #1163  
Old 12 August 2019, 13:43
GirlwithaGlock's Avatar
GirlwithaGlock GirlwithaGlock is online now
Russian Tycoon
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Swann’s Way
Posts: 3,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post
I need to find the time to read up on this, but I can't imagine a benefit to a rule change that punishes farm workers and construction laborers who are actually here legally. Given that we need to have a conversation about how to shift that bloc from illegal to legal entry, this rule on its surface seems counterproductive to that.
If you look at the quoted summary, it indicates that the rule targets individuals who use public assistance beyond acceptable thresholds. So, a legal farm worker or construction laborer who pays his/her own bills would not be affected. LPRs and nonimmigrants who are in the process of adjusting their status (and are not a protected category blah-blah-blah) must be able to demonstrate that they are not likely to become a burden on our society. I think it is very fair.
__________________
Dodge This!
Reply With Quote
  #1164  
Old 12 August 2019, 14:15
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 8,770
No non-citizens should get a thing, ever, in any way, shape or form. The fraud involved with "Free Shit"(TM) is massive. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #1165  
Old 12 August 2019, 14:41
Silverbullet's Avatar
Silverbullet Silverbullet is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bunker
Posts: 15,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post
I need to find the time to read up on this, but I can't imagine a benefit to a rule change that punishes farm workers and construction laborers who are actually here legally. Given that we need to have a conversation about how to shift that bloc from illegal to legal entry, this rule on its surface seems counterproductive to that.
I suspect the immigrant who posted the link may know more about the process than you or others...
Reply With Quote
  #1166  
Old 12 August 2019, 14:58
WGH0922 WGH0922 is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 2,223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
I suspect the immigrant who posted the link may know more about the process than you or others...
Damn savage!!
Reply With Quote
  #1167  
Old 12 August 2019, 15:18
btq96r's Avatar
btq96r btq96r is offline
Calix Meus Inebrians
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Improving my Foxhole
Posts: 3,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keganswar View Post
In what way? Unemployment insurance? Seems like a rule that should have been in place already if the government acted with any common sense, or with some fiscal responsibility. Other peoples money and all that jazz.
It's a conversation to have about how much a non-citizen who works a full time job qualifies. I think we can have a discussion about what they should qualify for (Social Security shouldn't be credited for non-citizenship time).


Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlwithaGlock View Post
If you look at the quoted summary, it indicates that the rule targets individuals who use public assistance beyond acceptable thresholds. So, a legal farm worker or construction laborer who pays his/her own bills would not be affected. LPRs and nonimmigrants who are in the process of adjusting their status (and are not a protected category blah-blah-blah) must be able to demonstrate that they are not likely to become a burden on our society. I think it is very fair.
I'm hoping those acceptable thresholds account for how even a legal farm worker is probably below the poverty line. Interested in seeing how the calculations work out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
No non-citizens should get a thing, ever, in any way, shape or form. The fraud involved with "Free Shit"(TM) is massive. S/F....Ken M
We have to admit we need non-citizens in this country to do the labor intensive work lazy Americans won't do. I'd rather pay an immigrant a modicum of welfare to help them as they earn their keep with a full time job than pay an American a lot of welfare to sit at home all day as a professional mooch because they just don't want to put in a days work.
__________________
Moderation is for Canadians.
Reply With Quote
  #1168  
Old 12 August 2019, 15:24
Fubar Fubar is offline
On the Extract Bird
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Fork Ranch
Posts: 3,935
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post
We have to admit we need non-citizens in this country to do the labor intensive work lazy Americans won't do. I'd rather pay an immigrant a modicum of welfare to help them as they earn their keep with a full time job than pay an American a lot of welfare to sit at home all day as a professional mooch because they just don't want to put in a days work.
Not sure I understand the logic of that. Wouldn't it be cheaper to push the "Lazy Ass Americans" getting a lot of Welfare into these jobs and pay them a "modicum of welfare?"
Reply With Quote
  #1169  
Old 12 August 2019, 15:26
Steve83 Steve83 is offline
Find a way out
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Solon
Posts: 1,718
Hold on a second, farm workers and construction laborers are usually here on temporary work visas, H-2A for example. Most of those are not looking to become U.S. citizens anyway.

You're conflating "non-citizens who work labor jobs" to other citizens in USCIS who may not be contributing to anything at all or may actually be taking a job an American could fill.

Edit: Since I'm on the topic, H-2A visas, used by employers, are required to provide free housing and meals to the workers as well. https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs26.htm

So there's no need for even a modicum of benefits. If they are, they're gaming the system.
__________________
The battle will be won when we look upon news casters with the same scorn as we do tobacco executives.

-Michael Malice

Last edited by Steve83; 12 August 2019 at 15:48.
Reply With Quote
  #1170  
Old 12 August 2019, 16:12
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South
Posts: 7,754
No, what we need is for American companies to actually pay a decent wage for work. H1B and other immigrant work programs exist only because corporations straight-up refuse to pay people what their labor is worth. If they have to have labor in the USA, and absolutely cannot offshore the work, they get the offshore to come to the USA.

People aren't "lazy". They're just not about to go work 12 hours a day in the hot sun for no job mobility, slave-wages, and still no ability to pay the bills because they aren't living 8 to a room in a 600 square foot apartment. Because Lindsey Graham's donor wants an extra .00001% profit growth on their balance sheet for the quarter, and because low-IQ slaves from GuatamexiLadeshia think simply having running water that doesn't give you dysentery is a living status four castes above the one they were born into.
Reply With Quote
  #1171  
Old 12 August 2019, 16:30
Look. Don'tTouch. Look. Don'tTouch. is offline
killjoy
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: West
Posts: 1,976
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post
labor intensive work lazy Americans won't do.
I hear this so much but I'm just not buying it. I'll call the bluff, let's see how it plays out.
__________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Reply With Quote
  #1172  
Old 12 August 2019, 18:10
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 8,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post
We have to admit we need non-citizens in this country to do the labor intensive work lazy Americans won't do.
No, we don't have to do any such thing. S/F...Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #1173  
Old 12 August 2019, 18:31
mike76233's Avatar
mike76233 mike76233 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Southern California
Posts: 377
Immigration isn't a solution to society's problems. If the people who live in the west aren't having enough children, we need to look inward and fix what is wrong with our society. Skilled and unskilled jobs should be for American citizens. If we aren't producing citizens who can or will work these jobs, we need to fix our society, not import Somalis and other undesirables

My personal belief is that the purpose of mass migration is an ill willed globohomo attempt to replace indigenous populations.
Reply With Quote
  #1174  
Old 12 August 2019, 18:46
Steve83 Steve83 is offline
Find a way out
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Solon
Posts: 1,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
People aren't "lazy". They're just not about to go work 12 hours a day in the hot sun for no job mobility, slave-wages, and still no ability to pay the bills because they aren't living 8 to a room in a 600 square foot apartment. Because Lindsey Graham's donor wants an extra .00001% profit growth on their balance sheet for the quarter, and because low-IQ slaves from GuatamexiLadeshia think simply having running water that doesn't give you dysentery is a living status four castes above the one they were born into.

Here's the thing: Farm labor will never pay enough for a Americans to do it. Too rural, too manual, and too many people needed. Until they bring back something like debtors prison or we let the whole public sector collapse...

Eh.. I'll stop there to not give you any ideas.

Long story short, it's better that the country is too wealthy to find manual labor. That'll be the case for at least the near future. Hint hint...

Anyway, H-2A visas, like I mentioned above, are a good enough substitute if they can be enforced properly. Here's the rub.

1.Too many overstay their visas. Which I don't think is a cost paid by the employer. (Likely falls under some safe-harbor rule)

2.There needs to be bonding or something in the event that a crime is committed by one of the migrant workers.

I know you're not going to agree. But the fact is, at least for now, with 3.6% unemployment you're not going to find enough Americans to do so. Urban jobs pay better.
__________________
The battle will be won when we look upon news casters with the same scorn as we do tobacco executives.

-Michael Malice
Reply With Quote
  #1175  
Old 12 August 2019, 18:54
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South
Posts: 7,754
No, it'll pay well enough because to not pick/reap/harvest/etc the material will/would cause a food crisis which will.would lead to an enormous increase in the price of food.......which will/would make it economically viable to pick/reap/harvest/etc the food.

Right now our entire economic structure is designed and ran by fake bullshit Federal Reserve fiat currency fuckery. Nothing about it is real. The main issue is that to get back to a "real" economy it would take a hard transition full of suffering. And if there's one thing the American citizenry aren't good at --- it's suffering.
Reply With Quote
  #1176  
Old 12 August 2019, 19:29
Steve83 Steve83 is offline
Find a way out
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Solon
Posts: 1,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
No, it'll pay well enough because to not pick/reap/harvest/etc the material will/would cause a food crisis which will.would lead to an enormous increase in the price of food.......which will/would make it economically viable to pick/reap/harvest/etc the food.
No, a lot of food will just get imported.

I'd rather deal with 140k seasonal workers than Ebola from the dark land.


Anyway, this is a sideshow to the point. I only brought migrant workers because Btq96r used the whole "modicum of werrrfaaarrr fer da layborers" argument as if that's the whole of it.


The real fact is like I said, they (workers you are talking about) are supposed to get everything they would need from the sponsor. Even if you disagree with the program, it defeats that point. Oh, and they're temporary, furthering my argument.


The real problem; outside of the demographic change you're more likely concerned about, are migrants who come over and are dependent on welfare through their kids.

Or, even if somehow they are not dependent on welfare through their kids, they never pay anything into the same at anywhere near that they take out.

Like I've mentioned before, it takes $11K+ per year, per child to go to school in America. So if a migrants has what, 4 kids? The K-12 education At the low end that's $150K, x4 that's $600k. Who's paying this?

And not for nothing, these are arguments you can win without having anyone calling you Slobodan.
__________________
The battle will be won when we look upon news casters with the same scorn as we do tobacco executives.

-Michael Malice
Reply With Quote
  #1177  
Old 13 August 2019, 00:35
havok88 havok88 is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: US
Posts: 2,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post

I'm hoping those acceptable thresholds account for how even a legal farm worker is probably below the poverty line. Interested in seeing how the calculations work out.
I hope it doesnt. If people want to come here, and they cant make it on their own, they can either deal with it or go back home. We dont owe it to them to make sure they arent poor. It was their choice to come here.
Reply With Quote
  #1178  
Old 13 August 2019, 00:59
wowzers wowzers is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by btq96r View Post



We have to admit we need non-citizens in this country to do the labor intensive work lazy Americans won't do. I'd rather pay an immigrant a modicum of welfare to help them as they earn their keep with a full time job than pay an American a lot of welfare to sit at home all day as a professional mooch because they just don't want to put in a days work.
I disagree with this completely. I have worked with guys planting trees and there is no way I want to do their job, but twenty years ago gringos made up the lions share of tree planters till corporations decided paying guys from south of the border pennies on the dollar was the way of the future. It's not so much that lazy Americans don't want to do the work, they just aren't going to do it for the wages to live in Guatemala.

https://www.hcn.org/issues/49.18/timber-how-the-outsourcing-of-forestry-jobs-seeps-into-our-public-lands-debates
Reply With Quote
  #1179  
Old 13 August 2019, 01:01
wowzers wowzers is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 1,999
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
No, what we need is for American companies to actually pay a decent wage for work. H1B and other immigrant work programs exist only because corporations straight-up refuse to pay people what their labor is worth. If they have to have labor in the USA, and absolutely cannot offshore the work, they get the offshore to come to the USA.

People aren't "lazy". They're just not about to go work 12 hours a day in the hot sun for no job mobility, slave-wages, and still no ability to pay the bills because they aren't living 8 to a room in a 600 square foot apartment. Because Lindsey Graham's donor wants an extra .00001% profit growth on their balance sheet for the quarter, and because low-IQ slaves from GuatamexiLadeshia think simply having running water that doesn't give you dysentery is a living status four castes above the one they were born into.
It was like you were reading my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #1180  
Old 13 August 2019, 03:02
schibbs schibbs is offline
been ***** **** that
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,496
Hispanics from Mexico and Central America make the best choice for farm labor, land scaping, etc, because they are lower to the ground and not as many back related injuries. It has absolutely nothing to do with being lazy! I always thought when I had a concrete business that I would like to find a crew of really versatile midgets for laborers and finishers!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 14:58.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2018