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  #21  
Old 14 September 2018, 09:07
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Originally Posted by Five-O View Post
I have a buddy (like many here) leaving for AFG in the very near future. This will be his (IIRC) his 12ish deployment. His younger brother did 5 deployments I believe and is struggling after he watched his best friend die. Enough.
Especially since Colin Powell as SecState, gave the Taliban $43 Million in May of '01 and an "atta-boy":

Quote:
On Thursday, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell announced a $43 million grant to Afghanistan in additional emergency aid to cope with the effects of a prolonged drought. The United States has become the biggest donor to help Afghanistan in the drought.

''We will continue to look for ways to provide more assistance to the Afghans,'' he said in a statement, ''including those farmers who have felt the impact of the ban on poppy cultivation, a decision by the Taliban that we welcome.''
$43 Million to A-Stan was like $215 Billion to the US - it was *a lot* of money.

4 years to defeat the Wermacht and Japanese Imperial Forces on two fronts - 17 years to *not* defeat the Taliban (now - cuz, they weren't on any planes that I know of and uncle OBL is gone ((after letting him slip into Pakistan and eat Doritos for 10 years)) and today it's all "AQ who?").

Nationalize the US Defense Industry and watch all the needless (or extended past their "sell by" dates) wars trickle down to a drip. "We're not the Russians!" - yea, no shit; they were smart enough to leave. Scotty, beam me to the Ken Burns Vietnam thread...
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  #22  
Old 14 September 2018, 16:12
CAVmedic CAVmedic is offline
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^Wow. I'd never heard that one before.

May 2001: Hey Taliban, here's $43 mill. to keep from starving since you cut poppy cultivation.

Sep. 2001: Thanks, we'll never hand over Bin Laden though!
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  #23  
Old 15 September 2018, 13:54
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Originally Posted by nofear View Post
Assad has a hot educated wife and doesn't cover her with a trash bag, in a region that finds that kind of thing horrific.

That alone has made me wonder for a few years now if he is truly as evil as the media portrays him as being.

It's a very shallow view, I appreciate that, but without personally seeing him in action, all I have to go on is the media....who I constantly find disappointing.
Assad is a brutally oppressive dictator, but an awful lot of the people he is brutally oppressing are folks I'd like to see oppressed by someone, and he'll do. He's been mean to the Kurds, but not as effectively as everyone else in the region, and the Syrian government is hardly the focus of Kurdish military efforts in support of their desired independence. Assad has at times been a tool for the Iranians and a protector of Hezbollah, but the Iranians are arguably no more or less evil than the Saudis who nurture Hamas, and the Iranian people as a rule are more westernized than the Saudis.

I suspect that we pick on Assad because he is aligned with Iran and Russia, and a proxy war in Syria drains Russian and Iranian resources and attention. Someone in a comfortable chair at a DC think tank got the idea that a steady drain on Russian and Iranian resources would limit their ability to cause trouble in other areas and might hurt their economies enough to cause unrest among their populations, with the assumption that the USA could always absorb the loss of blood and treasure without a hiccup. That's always an easy call for DC elitists to make when the taxpayers and families in flyover country will pick up the tab.
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  #24  
Old 16 September 2018, 02:36
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Assad got designated as the new Hitler and that meant that anyone fighting against al Hitler was obviously a 'moderate'. With a blind Western eye turned on those fighting against Hitlers armies Al Qaeda quickly went from sandals and donkeys to T-72s and Shilkas and split into an even harder fighting and ruthless offshoot . With the unexpected fall of Idlib to Nusra Front in early 2015 Damascus was expected to fall by years end and likely some sort of massive sectarian slaughter as Nusra front and ISIS competed to build the biggest Allawite/Shia skull pyramids. The West seemed cool with all of this because Assad was the new Hitler.
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  #25  
Old 17 September 2018, 05:52
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Let the Russians do the job.
And please DON'T shoot Tomahawks to help Al-Quaeda...
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  #26  
Old 17 September 2018, 18:14
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Since WWI (at least), pretty much every single war we've been involved with has had a lie or a lie by omission used as our pretext for war. Lusitania was smuggling weapons/guncotton to Britain and the Germans even published ads in American papers saying so before the ship left port. Roosevelt purposefully provoked Japan into attacking first, and even moved the Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor against objections from the Fleet Admiral (who was later relieved of command for saying what he thought) in order to make it easier for the Japs to hit it. Vietnam -- Gulf of Tonkin never happened. Gulf War I - complete PR firm Hill & Knowlton was hired to sell the war to the US public with the help of the Kuwaiti ambo's daughter giving an Oscar winning performance about Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of incubators (all lies). WMDs in Iraq? [insert Colin Powell wagging a vial of whatever at the UNSC table]. Lies.

It's all lies. And this current push to get us to expend more American blood and treasure for yet another bullshit expedition, in Syria this time, for the benefit of a select few is beginning again. So here we have fake news ready to broadcast yet another lie to the stupid American people.

The really sad part is that we keep falling for it. Over and over. The lies. The manipulation. The constant stream of overt in-your-face propaganda. And we never hold these people to account. They keep getting away with it.
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  #27  
Old 18 September 2018, 13:21
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
No doubt. Hell, I'm sure there's many people here on SOCNET who disagree with me.

Now that I have an adult son who's told me he wants to join the military after college, my position on every potential conflict revolves around "Is this worth my son's life?". I can only imagine a few possible scenarios where the answer is yes. Selfish, I know.
I agree with you.
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  #28  
Old 18 September 2018, 13:24
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Since WWI (at least), pretty much every single war we've been involved with has had a lie or a lie by omission used as our pretext for war. Lusitania was smuggling weapons/guncotton to Britain and the Germans even published ads in American papers saying so before the ship left port. Roosevelt purposefully provoked Japan into attacking first, and even moved the Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor against objections from the Fleet Admiral (who was later relieved of command for saying what he thought) in order to make it easier for the Japs to hit it. Vietnam -- Gulf of Tonkin never happened. Gulf War I - complete PR firm Hill & Knowlton was hired to sell the war to the US public with the help of the Kuwaiti ambo's daughter giving an Oscar winning performance about Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of incubators (all lies). WMDs in Iraq? [insert Colin Powell wagging a vial of whatever at the UNSC table]. Lies.

It's all lies. And this current push to get us to expend more American blood and treasure for yet another bullshit expedition, in Syria this time, for the benefit of a select few is beginning again. So here we have fake news ready to broadcast yet another lie to the stupid American people.

The really sad part is that we keep falling for it. Over and over. The lies. The manipulation. The constant stream of overt in-your-face propaganda. And we never hold these people to account. They keep getting away with it.
But we are defending our freedoms.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LQUXuQ6Zd9w
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  #29  
Old 18 September 2018, 14:01
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Is this the definition of irony?

Syria accidentally shoots down a Russian military plane

and Israel gets blamed...
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  #30  
Old 18 September 2018, 14:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Especially since Colin Powell as SecState, gave the Taliban $43 Million in May of '01 and an "atta-boy":



$43 Million to A-Stan was like $215 Billion to the US - it was *a lot* of money.

4 years to defeat the Wermacht and Japanese Imperial Forces on two fronts - 17 years to *not* defeat the Taliban (now - cuz, they weren't on any planes that I know of and uncle OBL is gone ((after letting him slip into Pakistan and eat Doritos for 10 years)) and today it's all "AQ who?").

Nationalize the US Defense Industry and watch all the needless (or extended past their "sell by" dates) wars trickle down to a drip. "We're not the Russians!" - yea, no shit; they were smart enough to leave. Scotty, beam me to the Ken Burns Vietnam thread...
Yep. Many lives destroyed for lies.
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  #31  
Old 18 September 2018, 14:42
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Originally Posted by ricardo View Post
Is this the definition of irony?

Syria accidentally shoots down a Russian military plane

and Israel gets blamed...
I'm sure the Israeli's are real worried. On the other hand I really don't see the Russian pilots itching to get into a dogfight with the IDF.
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  #32  
Old 19 September 2018, 05:29
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I'm sure the Israeli's are real worried. On the other hand I really don't see the Russian pilots itching to get into a dogfight with the IDF.
Either way, nothing to do with us. Given the geography, Israel vs Russia is all proxy-war nonsense. The only guaranteed losers are the durka-durkas, with likely collateral damage to Assyrians, Kurds, etc. Every time the Arabs get involved in any military activity, they devolve further back towards the stone age. Pretty soon they'll all be back to wandering the desert, searching for water full time, waiting for Peter O'Toole. S/F...Ken M
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  #33  
Old 19 September 2018, 10:57
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Since WWI (at least), pretty much every single war we've been involved with has had a lie or a lie by omission used as our pretext for war. Lusitania was smuggling weapons/guncotton to Britain and the Germans even published ads in American papers saying so before the ship left port. Roosevelt purposefully provoked Japan into attacking first, and even moved the Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor against objections from the Fleet Admiral (who was later relieved of command for saying what he thought) in order to make it easier for the Japs to hit it. Vietnam -- Gulf of Tonkin never happened. Gulf War I - complete PR firm Hill & Knowlton was hired to sell the war to the US public with the help of the Kuwaiti ambo's daughter giving an Oscar winning performance about Iraqi soldiers taking babies out of incubators (all lies). WMDs in Iraq? [insert Colin Powell wagging a vial of whatever at the UNSC table]. Lies.

It's all lies. And this current push to get us to expend more American blood and treasure for yet another bullshit expedition, in Syria this time, for the benefit of a select few is beginning again. So here we have fake news ready to broadcast yet another lie to the stupid American people.

The really sad part is that we keep falling for it. Over and over. The lies. The manipulation. The constant stream of overt in-your-face propaganda. And we never hold these people to account. They keep getting away with it.
don't forget the Spanish-American War. "Remember the Maine"
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  #34  
Old 20 September 2018, 00:54
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Apparently the "white helmets" have been busy creating fake news again.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6073176/

I watched a documentary praising the "white helmets." When it was over I said to myself, "these fuckers are up to something."
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  #35  
Old 20 September 2018, 07:45
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
Since WWI (at least), pretty much every single war we've been involved with has had a lie or a lie by omission used as our pretext for war. Lusitania was smuggling weapons/guncotton to Britain and the Germans even published ads in American papers saying so before the ship left port. Roosevelt purposefully provoked Japan into attacking first, and even moved the Pacific fleet to Pearl Harbor against objections from the Fleet Admiral (who was later relieved of command for saying what he thought) in order to make it easier for the Japs to hit it. Vietnam -- Gulf of Tonkin never happened.
Bullshit. Stop. Ask me how I know. The United States did not enter the war because of the Lusitania. It entered the war because of German unrestricted submarine warfare against U.S. Merchant vessels and the death of US civilians on those vessels several years later. Roosevelt did not attempt to lure the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor. He <was> daring the Germans to cross the line and attack us, which they did and then Hitler backed off. He wasn't lying--we were protecting the British and everyone knew it. Adding a war in the Pacific would have been dumb, and Roosevelt let Dean Acheson screw up the sanctions. The first attack on a US warship <did> occur in the Gulf of Tonkin. That is not in doubt. The second we know did not, and the JCS did not have the courage to stop Johnson's escalation. But you can't say Gulf of Tonkin never happened--I have to clean that mess up from some of my liberal colleagues here on campus.
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  #36  
Old 20 September 2018, 08:12
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That's a big black f'n wall for one bullet impact, after Maddox fired first, and McNamara's own words state there was going to be no escalation due to 2 Aug. 4 Aug was complete BS - imaginary torpedo wakes, "Tonkin Ghosts", etc... but hey, it worked... if your a swamp dweller.
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  #37  
Old 20 September 2018, 09:40
CAVmedic CAVmedic is offline
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Is this really going to be a debate on the MIC? I have a hard time believing WW2 was avoidable, especially given everything we now know.

Call me stupid I guess...
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  #38  
Old 20 September 2018, 10:23
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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I don't disagree with his basic premise - that U.S. officials have finagled the country into war over nothing (the Mexican War is the most stunning example) or certain members of the public have pressured Congress and the President into choosing war - but we need to be accurate about the facts too. That's why I threw the BS flag. I don't want to derail the thread further.
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  #39  
Old 20 September 2018, 11:49
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Originally Posted by CAVmedic View Post
Is this really going to be a debate on the MIC? I have a hard time believing WW2 was avoidable, especially given everything we now know.

Call me stupid I guess...
WW2 would have gone a lot better for the USA if the Nazis and Commies were allowed to bleed each other white while we stomped on the Japs.

Two decades ago, the same shitlib media who are panty wetting over Russia today, were lauding commie Russia genius and long term thinking. "Russia is playing chess and USA is playing checkers." and other FUD demoralization propaganda etc etc.

There's some validity there, American's need to pause and assess long term issues and outcomes before committing to BS like Syria or any other overseas entanglements. S/F....Ken M
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  #40  
Old 20 September 2018, 12:24
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
There's some validity there, American's need to pause and assess long term issues and outcomes before committing to BS like Syria or any other overseas entanglements. S/F....Ken M
"Is this worth the lives of American soldiers?"

I know, I know, I sound like a broken record...
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