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  #21  
Old 5 October 2016, 22:25
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Front_Sight_Bang Front_Sight_Bang is offline
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Well, I'll give you a couple of answers. The first one people will most likely not like. However if you're asking in the sense of self preservation it's the only answer. It doesn't excuse or make right an officer who has spun out of control, but you'll live. If an officer gets assed up to the point we're discussing, move slowly, speak calmly, and do what they ask. If you start challenging a guy whose tachometer is starting to peg, it will probably result in what you saw in the video. I fully realize people on this board aren't too jiggy with blind compliance regardless of the situation, but as I said when viewed through the lens of self-preservation you'll live. If the officer is in the wrong you can always raise hell about it and try to take action later. That's the shitty answer #1. There's a difference between an officer who is taking control of the situation but is still well in control of himself, and an officer who is starting to spaz out. I'm discussing the latter

Now in my experience, here's the real scoop. If you are contacted by an officer who has their shit together (majority of the time) then you don't have to do anything to de-escalate the situation, they will. We're supposed to base our actions in response to yours. So as long as you don't act like or do anything completely retarded or dangerous, we should be the ones escalating and de-escalating as appropriate. It should be pretty apparent pretty quickly which kind of officer you're dealing with (like the apparently level headed Sgt from this video). You can choose your course of action from there .
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  #22  
Old 5 October 2016, 22:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
We're supposed to base our actions in response to yours. So as long as you don't act like or do anything completely retarded or dangerous, we should be the ones escalating and de-escalating as appropriate.
There is a lot of truth to that statement. Unfortunately, a lot of LEO's have lost the gift of gab and the ability to interact with people. True interactions requires conversation as in quid pro quo and not necessarily a dictatorship. A LEO can perform his duties without dictating and still be professional.

I've known LEO's in various departments that get into some sort of altercation with the majority of the people he encounters. And, at the end of the day...he is the only common denominator. Once that fact is acknowledged by their department, they are usually handled appropriately.

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of people in LE that simply don't need to be there. I am seeing it more and more these days...and I'm not talking about on TV or YouTube. I'm talking about my day-to-day life.
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  #23  
Old 5 October 2016, 22:51
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^^^^
1. When the reds and blues come on, pull all the way over on the right shoulder as soon as it's safe to do so, not ten miles down the road.
2. Transmission in park and dome lights on.
3. Driver's hands on the steering wheel and passenger's hands on their knees.
4. When the trooper comes to the door and asks for license and registration, tell him where they are before you reach for them. If you have a LTC, inform him of such and where it's concealed, especially if it's near your wallet.
4. Follow instructions.
5. Sign the ticket if given one.
6. Don't argue on the roadside; if you think it's a BS ticket, argue your case with the judge.

Easy peasy.
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  #24  
Old 5 October 2016, 22:51
Dino0311 Dino0311 is online now
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Incompetent deputy, foolish subject. Is it wise to dial up the heat when an idiot has a gun pointed at your head?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
Well, I'll give you a couple of answers. The first one people will most likely not like. However if you're asking in the sense of self preservation it's the only answer. It doesn't excuse or make right an officer who has spun out of control, but you'll live. If an officer gets assed up to the point we're discussing, move slowly, speak calmly, and do what they ask. If you start challenging a guy whose tachometer is starting to peg, it will probably result in what you saw in the video. I fully realize people on this board aren't too jiggy with blind compliance regardless of the situation, but as I said when viewed through the lens of self-preservation you'll live. If the officer is in the wrong you can always raise hell about it and try to take action later. That's the shitty answer #1. There's a difference between an officer who is taking control of the situation but is still well in control of himself, and an officer who is starting to spaz out. I'm discussing the latter

Now in my experience, here's the real scoop. If you are contacted by an officer who has their shit together (majority of the time) then you don't have to do anything to de-escalate the situation, they will. We're supposed to base our actions in response to yours. So as long as you don't act like or do anything completely retarded or dangerous, we should be the ones escalating and de-escalating as appropriate. It should be pretty apparent pretty quickly which kind of officer you're dealing with (like the apparently level headed Sgt from this video). You can choose your course of action from there .
100% all this. And you may not know you're dealing with that one cop until it's too late.
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  #25  
Old 5 October 2016, 23:16
johnnylaw johnnylaw is offline
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The deputy seems like a big pussy to me. Unless he saw something the camera didn't show us, there was no justification to point his pistol and that guys head with his finger on the bang switch.
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  #26  
Old 5 October 2016, 23:37
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Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
There is a lot of truth to that statement. Unfortunately, a lot of LEO's have lost the gift of gab and the ability to interact with people. True interactions requires conversation.
Spot on. A good friend who as an FTO said the biggest thing the new LEOs are having a hard time with is talking to people. This is the text generation and they have no idea how to speak to people or understand the way people are speaking to them.
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  #27  
Old 6 October 2016, 01:58
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Originally Posted by Chimo View Post
Spot on. A good friend who as an FTO said the biggest thing the new LEOs are having a hard time with is talking to people. This is the text generation and they have no idea how to speak to people or understand the way people are speaking to them.
But they can text like a motherfucker. We have curtailed our FTF contact.
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  #28  
Old 6 October 2016, 13:04
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The deputy obviously saw something that directed his attention to the guy sitting in the car. Why the dude wouldn't tell the deputy right off that he was a PI working on a case is beyond me. Seems to me he just wanted to push buttons. Constantly asking for a supervisor isn't the way to de-escalate a situation with anyone. The fact that the dude had a camera running during the encounter speaks volumes. He wanted to escalate things, based on his elusive answers and demands. Any normal person, including myself if I was under cover and a uniformed officer I did not know approached me and started asking questions, would immediately ID themselves and their purpose for being there, to avoid just such a problem. This guy took the "none of your business" approach, which, in any normal LEO will send up major red flags. Neither one tried to de-escalate the situation, and they are both at fault.

I agree fully that (IMO and based on the video only which only shows one POV) the deputy went to deadly force way too fast. Standing there with a drawn weapon and your other hand on the subject's wrist is wrong. When it is time to go to the bang switch, the time for "hands on" is past. The fact that the dude just sat there while the deputy was ordering him out of the car is also wrong. Yes, LEOs can order you out of the car, and if you refuse that order, you may be forcibly removed. That is the difference between a request, and an order. The fact that dude felt that he did not have to obey the order is moot. He was wrong, and escalated things because he did not feel like complying. He then lied when the supervisor did show up, saying that the deputy never asked him to get out of the car. He did, several times. When the supervisor asks, the dude complies. Why then? Because he knew he was wrong in not complying in the first place.

As far as the deputy goes, hands shaking and all, he needs some calm pills. I remember my hands shaking once, during all my career. I was sitting across from a child molester and he asked why my hands were shaking. I told him. It was because I was using all my strength to resist reaching across the table and ripping his throat out. During every other encounter I had, no matter the provocation, I was always calm. The reason was that I knew it was me who was in charge of the situation. I knew the laws, and never let myself escalate anything. Purely reactive, but controlling the situation. In my career I knew a few guys like this deputy. Nothing I could do about them except avoid working with them. When a LEO is in control of themselves, they will have a much easier time controlling others when needed. If you can't control your own actions, and reactions, you will not make a good LEO.

Bottom line, the dude in the car was a jackoff, and the deputy over reacted to the jackoff and lost control of the situation.
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  #29  
Old 6 October 2016, 13:13
Jakers Jakers is offline
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FSB (or anyone else for that matter), got a question. When Plunkett walks up he almost immediately asks if Sheppard is a PI. Why? Aside from some info from dispatch that we aren't privy to, what would make you think some random person parked in a car was a PI? To follow up, if you thought that was the case and there might be a legit reason for the guys presence, why wouldn't you follow up on in? (the obvious answer being that Plunkett is a retarded assclown and Sheppard didn't help the situation)

Just to add more fuel to the idiocy, Plunkett holsters his gun pretty quickly, right around when he grabs Sheppard's wrist. He then uses his right hand (shooting hand) to use his radio before redrawing his pistol. That makes no sense- he apparently thought he might have to use deadly force, then puts the gun away in favor of holding a wrist (which I would guess who do nothing worthwhile if Sheppard had grabbed something with his right hand) while tying up his shooting hand with a radio. If he really thought a gun was called for, why in the hell did he holster it? If he'd changed his mind, why redraw it? Seriously, what the fuck?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
You could see the goat eyes on the officer plunkett. Completely lost in the sauce and defaulted to the standard posture when faced with someone who isn't cowering in fear --- draw weapon, assert authority (or at least it seems that's what it was).
That wasn't being lost; the look in his eyes when the Sergeant has him step back is "I don't get to do what I want! I'm not getting my way! This big meanie weanie wasn't being nice! This other big meanie weanie [the sergeant] is taking over and not letting me run things! Waaaaaah!"
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  #30  
Old 6 October 2016, 14:05
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Twenty-five years ago I worked workers comp insurance fraud to put myself through school. I was running a beta camcorder and had one of those very early block style cellphones. Depending on the area, the responding agency, and the situation, I'd make a curtesy call to ID myself, sometimes I didn't. I often worked a state contract, which included LEOs on W/C. On those cases, I didn't make the call for obvious reasons. One of those times I got rolled up on and harassed similar to this video. I'm certain they knew who I was surveilling as it was a rural location. Afterwards, I drove to the stationhouse and had a nice long conversation with the dude's supervisor. It never happened again with that agency.

This PI also did it wrong. His state issued PI ID should have been in his hand, and he should have exited when instructed the first time. I get that he's tired of being rolled up on, and he perceives it as harassment, but, that isn't the time to make that point. Furthermore, his attitude/tone of voice and non-compliance fed into a situation where a gun was pointed at his head, and his surveillance was likely compromised. Both failures of professionalism. My experience, because I remained calm and compliant with PI ID and hands in plain sight, was the LEO often took my PI ID and left the area to do the check so as not to compromise my position.
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  #31  
Old 6 October 2016, 14:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grog18b View Post
The deputy obviously saw something that directed his attention to the guy sitting in the car. Why the dude wouldn't tell the deputy right off that he was a PI working on a case is beyond me. Seems to me he just wanted to push buttons. Constantly asking for a supervisor isn't the way to de-escalate a situation with anyone. The fact that the dude had a camera running during the encounter speaks volumes. He wanted to escalate things, based on his elusive answers and demands. Any normal person, including myself if I was under cover and a uniformed officer I did not know approached me and started asking questions, would immediately ID themselves and their purpose for being there, to avoid just such a problem. This guy took the "none of your business" approach, which, in any normal LEO will send up major red flags. Neither one tried to de-escalate the situation, and they are both at fault.

I agree fully that (IMO and based on the video only which only shows one POV) the deputy went to deadly force way too fast. Standing there with a drawn weapon and your other hand on the subject's wrist is wrong. When it is time to go to the bang switch, the time for "hands on" is past. The fact that the dude just sat there while the deputy was ordering him out of the car is also wrong. Yes, LEOs can order you out of the car, and if you refuse that order, you may be forcibly removed. That is the difference between a request, and an order. The fact that dude felt that he did not have to obey the order is moot. He was wrong, and escalated things because he did not feel like complying. He then lied when the supervisor did show up, saying that the deputy never asked him to get out of the car. He did, several times. When the supervisor asks, the dude complies. Why then? Because he knew he was wrong in not complying in the first place.

As far as the deputy goes, hands shaking and all, he needs some calm pills. I remember my hands shaking once, during all my career. I was sitting across from a child molester and he asked why my hands were shaking. I told him. It was because I was using all my strength to resist reaching across the table and ripping his throat out. During every other encounter I had, no matter the provocation, I was always calm. The reason was that I knew it was me who was in charge of the situation. I knew the laws, and never let myself escalate anything. Purely reactive, but controlling the situation. In my career I knew a few guys like this deputy. Nothing I could do about them except avoid working with them. When a LEO is in control of themselves, they will have a much easier time controlling others when needed. If you can't control your own actions, and reactions, you will not make a good LEO.

Bottom line, the dude in the car was a jackoff, and the deputy over reacted to the jackoff and lost control of the situation.
It took 26 seconds for the deputy to take hold of the driver's wrist. Pretty damn incredible detective skills to determine a threat and have to take him into custody with 26 seconds of interaction.

Serious question. How does one comply with, "Get out of the vehicle." when the deputy just took hold of the wrist and has a pistol in his other hand?
Do you move your right hand to the door latch and hope the deputy isn't using it has an excuse to shoot you cause you moved your right hand out of his view?

36 seconds later he tells him to stay right there. It would be very evident to me at that point I am dealing with someone (the deputy) who is confused and stressed.

Compliance is a matter of deadly force and I should just be ok with that even when compliance is not possible.
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  #32  
Old 6 October 2016, 17:37
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
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Ohio used to require PIs to notify a jurisdiction when they or an associate were working there, including make/model of the vehicle they were in.
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  #33  
Old 6 October 2016, 19:03
Dino0311 Dino0311 is online now
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I don't know if it's a law around here but it's certainly best practices.
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  #34  
Old 7 October 2016, 09:48
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I am shocked that the officers on this board wouldn't totally denounce someone with their finger on the trigger like this...even while his supervisor and others were on scene.
Everyone watching knows that plunkett wanted the driver out of the vehicle to abuse and assert physically on him. Pretending this isn't the case seems ignorant to me.

If this idiot in blue isn't considered a danger and totally wrong by fellow officers...we have a more serious problem behind the blue line than I ever imagined.

I think this points to the radical divide between the way citizens should be treated and how we've devolved to honor only officer safety.

I hope plunkett has to watch this video in trial after trial where his judgement and character are questioned...because for sure his peers aren't doing anything but blindly supporting him.
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  #35  
Old 7 October 2016, 10:05
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Veritatem Cognoscere Veritatem Cognoscere is offline
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The thing I keep struggling with (yes Sheppard contributed to it escalating) is why the Deputy drew his weapon. I thought standard was higher for leo's than citizens on use of lethal force and I can't see any reason he would have needed his weapon drawn and pointed at Sheppard's head, much less with his finger on the trigger.
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  #36  
Old 7 October 2016, 10:28
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Sharky Sharky is offline
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The dude in the truck was looking for a reason to sue. He passively resisted as bait to get Plunkett to do exactly what he did. He even told them he had just finished suing them once in federal court. Verdict on the driver = Douchebag

Plunkett put that Berretta into single action. I completely disagree that pointing the weapon is pointing the weapon regardless of whether the gun is in single or double action. Double action requires a positive thought out action by the shooter. In single action, given the mental state of Plunkett, a car horn, backfire or anything else could have caused him to reflexively fire his weapon in that state.


Bottom line for me is that we are addressing the wrong issues.

Principles are the unchanging parameters upon which techniques are built. They never change. Techniques change, but they will always stay within the unchanging principles. Tactics are built on top of techniques. Tactics change constantly. What is being discussed here for the most part are tactics and techniques. The problem however lies at the deeper level of principle, and that is that this officer is either not mentally fit to be an LEO, or he has not been properly trained in how to deal with this situation. My opinion is that he isn't fit. He looks the part, but as soon as the stress hit him from someone simply passively resisting, he went to his gun. To me, that makes it very plain that he is not mentally equipped to deal with the job and could easily wind up getting someone killed.
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  #37  
Old 7 October 2016, 11:08
Dino0311 Dino0311 is online now
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Originally Posted by mdavid View Post
I am shocked that the officers on this board wouldn't totally denounce someone with their finger on the trigger like this...even while his supervisor and others were on scene.
Everyone watching knows that plunkett wanted the driver out of the vehicle to abuse and assert physically on him. Pretending this isn't the case seems ignorant to me.

If this idiot in blue isn't considered a danger and totally wrong by fellow officers...we have a more serious problem behind the blue line than I ever imagined.

I think this points to the radical divide between the way citizens should be treated and how we've devolved to honor only officer safety.

I hope plunkett has to watch this video in trial after trial where his judgement and character are questioned...because for sure his peers aren't doing anything but blindly supporting him.
I called him an idiot. Everybody else picked him apart too. I don't know that he wanted him out of the car to assault him and you don't either. Can you acknowledge that the PI intentionally escalated this?
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  #38  
Old 7 October 2016, 11:08
Dino0311 Dino0311 is online now
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Originally Posted by Veritatem Cognoscere View Post
The thing I keep struggling with (yes Sheppard contributed to it escalating) is why the Deputy drew his weapon. I thought standard was higher for leo's than citizens on use of lethal force and I can't see any reason he would have needed his weapon drawn and pointed at Sheppard's head, much less with his finger on the trigger.
I saw no reason for it either.
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  #39  
Old 7 October 2016, 11:25
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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For the most part, I'd say the LEO's on this site seem pretty level-headed and tend to call a spade for what it is.
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  #40  
Old 7 October 2016, 11:26
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For the most part, I'd say the LEO's on this site seem pretty level-headed and tend to call a spade for what it is.
Definitely agree..
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