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  #41  
Old 1 August 2008, 23:38
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Originally Posted by Matchanu View Post
This is what really irks me.

What in the fuck for? Are the teams so overwhelmed with missions that we need the assistance?

Are counter-terror missions dropping out of the sky to the point we have to ask another branch for help?

Give me a fucking break!

Team guys go their entire carrers and never get to play.

This is utter bullshit on so many levals.
I agree 100%. I can't see it going over too well within the Teams either. I know I sure as hell would not want a guy next to me that is there for a limited time with ulterior motives.
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  #42  
Old 1 August 2008, 23:47
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This is so fucking ridiculous that I ranted for 3 pages before I could calm down. BP is normal again. I can just say, I will be shocked if this gets any traction. Christ, next they will want to be Green Berets and THAT just won't do.
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  #43  
Old 2 August 2008, 03:37
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Jus like coasties going to deepsea school or Navy Expedtionary force doing the USMC job...its stupid and a waste of money.
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  #44  
Old 2 August 2008, 10:21
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It sounds like a waste of money, time & resources. But it is likely seen by the CG as a way to get a bigger budget/money/public relations and someone in the NSW community sees some benifit as well.

DDSSDV is spot on when he said,"Just like coasties going to deepsea school or Navy Expedtionary force doing the USMC job...its stupid and a waste of money"

EVERY Govt Dept wants a "cool guy, HSLD, organization" with the results often less than spectactular and often duplicating missions. Nobody does maritime ops better than the SEALs, but the CG wants its group of Barrel Chested Freedom Fighters that at budget time they can point to. Nevermind may or may not have a mission, or that mission is already taken care of.

Wow, just think about what kind of posers we will get out of these!

I can hear it now,"Hey BABY, I was a career CG, Rescue Diver in Alaska, but I was so good the SEAL TM 6 handpicked me and I was doing combat diving in the Stan to snipe OBL. Yea, after I squared the Frogs away I had to came back to the CG. The stress you know, thats why I'm inspecting light houses....thats standard way to decompress after all the killing you know.....can I buy you a beer?"
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  #45  
Old 2 August 2008, 10:44
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No different from the rest of the posers in the other branches.

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Originally Posted by LRS Guy View Post
It sounds like a waste of money, time & resources. But it is likely seen by the CG as a way to get a bigger budget/money/public relations and someone in the NSW community sees some benifit as well.

DDSSDV is spot on when he said,"Just like coasties going to deepsea school or Navy Expedtionary force doing the USMC job...its stupid and a waste of money"

EVERY Govt Dept wants a "cool guy, HSLD, organization" with the results often less than spectactular and often duplicating missions. Nobody does maritime ops better than the SEALs, but the CG wants its group of Barrel Chested Freedom Fighters that at budget time they can point to. Nevermind may or may not have a mission, or that mission is already taken care of.

Wow, just think about what kind of posers we will get out of these!

I can hear it now,"Hey BABY, I was a career CG, Rescue Diver in Alaska, but I was so good the SEAL TM 6 handpicked me and I was doing combat diving in the Stan to snipe OBL. Yea, after I squared the Frogs away I had to came back to the CG. The stress you know, thats why I'm inspecting light houses....thats standard way to decompress after all the killing you know.....can I buy you a beer?"
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  #46  
Old 2 August 2008, 11:37
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I don't see where a USCG CT/SOF unit would even fit into the big picture with other units from SOCOM and DoJ already covering just about any mission parameters I can think of inside CONUS or out. I can find it plausible that they would want advanced training in VBSS/MIO or small boat riverine ops given the LEO/narco interdiction type gigs they do and maybe NSW might be the best place to find that particular skill set. That said, putting a guy through BUD/S, SQT, and two or three platoons seems like an awfully long time to wait before you acquire your institutional knowledge and make your command self-sufficent. If the Coast Guard wants it's own maritime SOF unit(which is fucking stupid idea but that's beside the point) if they want one, wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier, cheaper, and faster to hire a few former SEALs & SWCCs and start their own pipeline focusing on whatever task specific training they need. I'm interested to see what NSW's official word on this is.
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  #47  
Old 2 August 2008, 12:16
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Originally Posted by Rudee
That said, putting a guy through BUD/S, SQT, and two or three platoons seems like an awfully long time to wait before you acquire your institutional knowledge and make your command self-sufficent. If the Coast Guard wants it's own maritime SOF unit(which is fucking stupid idea but that's beside the point) if they want one, wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier, cheaper, and faster to hire a few former SEALs & SWCCs and start their own pipeline focusing on whatever task specific training they need....
This is what I was thinking. Calculate into their plans attrition during training as well as attrition from work (by this, use the SAME attrition statistics the Navy sees, and then put that against the numbers that the CG will throw at this), and I am almost laughing at this idea. Even after 10 years of HARD work and effort, would they even have enough people to staff a couple of platoons -- let alone a company-sized unit? Add into that, a unit with no serious background and experience for making the decisions on WHY something will be done, vice simply HOW.

I've been watching the CG work to put together a SMU now for several years. Its obvious they are serious about wanting one, and are willing to do practically anything to get it.

And yet, with the far more probable scenario of an attack against the US (within the realm of the CG's purview) being a container or ship with something uncool within it, the best we can do is inspect 2% of arriving cargo, and only then if a BoL is suspicious. Way to go Admirals (in both orgs) -- you keep those priorities focused on the important stuff.

As stated earlier, this concept is GAY....
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  #48  
Old 2 August 2008, 12:37
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I have to say I agree with 99.9% of this. Especially about the cargo ship thing. The CG refuses to really acknowledge that that is a problem even though it is widely known. Let's take the Port of San Francisco. Nearby is Coast Guard Island where they have an MSST. Want to guess at what they did most of the day? NOTHING! They did their organized PT, a little BS training and then checked emails. I was working at the armory which was about 200 ft. from them and I had friends there. The frustration was pretty evident. I won't even go into the warehouse full of gear that they had which sat mostly unused because those in procurement had little or no knowledge of what they were buying. Their guys wanted to go out and do stuff.They wanted to do advanced training, and go search inbound vessels but they didn't for whatever reason.

The more I think about this the more I start to think it probably is a bad idea. They should focus more on developing the BO's and BTM's and expand their training. For example; most personnel do not even receive basic instruction in low-light techniques. I guess it's because those in charge think that the inside of every ship is lit and no one does boardings in the dark. There is (or was when I was in) very little emphasis on CQB or operating in confined spaces. I think part of this problem stems from the fact that many BTM's are the E-1-E-3's from deck division and someone thinks that it is more important to chip paint and rust than provide good quality training time.

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This is what I was thinking. Calculate into their plans attrition during training as well as attrition from work (by this, use the SAME attrition statistics the Navy sees, and then put that against the numbers that the CG will throw at this), and I am almost laughing at this idea. Even after 10 years of HARD work and effort, would they even have enough people to staff a couple of platoons -- let alone a company-sized unit? Add into that, a unit with no serious background and experience for making the decisions on WHY something will be done, vice simply HOW.

I've been watching the CG work to put together a SMU now for several years. Its obvious they are serious about wanting one, and are willing to do practically anything to get it.

And yet, with the far more probable scenario of an attack against the US (within the realm of the CG's purview) being a container or ship with something uncool within it, the best we can do is inspect 2% of arriving cargo, and only then if a BoL is suspicious. Way to go Admirals (in both orgs) -- you keep those priorities focused on the important stuff.

As stated earlier, this concept is GAY....
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Last edited by iraqgunz; 2 August 2008 at 12:49.
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  #49  
Old 2 August 2008, 12:39
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Way outta my lane here, but could this possibly be for posse commitatus purposes within U.S territorial waters? I still agree that there are numerous other organizations already with overlapping capabilities in this arena HRT, SOG, BORTAC, Customs SRT. My other question is why do they need to do this when they already have a specops capability with they're MSRT, MSST ect. OOC would probbly have a good take on this as he worked for some of the units just mentioned.

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  #50  
Old 2 August 2008, 12:56
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they already have a specops capability with they're MSRT, MSST ect.
Not really.

SOF is far more involved than simply boarding a ship and performing some CQB.


Being that they are DOJ, and subject to the restrictions of a LEO organization, there is precious little they will gain, in terms of utilization of learned skills, they would gain from this program.

5-7 years gives a guy 1 year of BUD/S SQT, 1 year platoon work up, 6 month deployment as a fucking know nothing new guy, 1 year second platoon work up, 6 month deployment as a assistant department rep, possibly a department head, and possibly another platoon.

Barring of course, injury, burn out, or whatever needs his team may or may not have.

O.k., so now our coastie gets a decent feel for how NSW works and moves on back to his CG command. He quickly realizes that the CG world is vastly different than the NSW world, the command, training, departments, support, etc.. and nothing translates. Not only that, but the skills he has learned cannot be utilized into the coast guard mission.


Our young coastie realizes that in terms of how this applies to the CG command, it is a complete and utter waste of time ans effort, and NSW wastes it's time a money training up someone who will not continue support to the command.



This is begning to look like a upper echolon circle jerk.
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  #51  
Old 2 August 2008, 13:27
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Not really.

SOF is far more involved than simply boarding a ship and performing some CQB.

Being that they are DOJ, and subject to the restrictions of a LEO organization, there is precious little they will gain, in terms of utilization of learned skills, they would gain from this program.

5-7 years gives a guy 1 year of BUD/S SQT, 1 year platoon work up, 6 month deployment as a fucking know nothing new guy, 1 year second platoon work up, 6 month deployment as a assistant department rep, possibly a department head, and possibly another platoon.

Barring of course, injury, burn out, or whatever needs his team may or may not have.

O.k., so now our coastie gets a decent feel for how NSW works and moves on back to his CG command. He quickly realizes that the CG world is vastly different than the NSW world, the command, training, departments, support, etc.. and nothing translates. Not only that, but the skills he has learned cannot be utilized into the coast guard mission.

Our young coastie realizes that in terms of how this applies to the CG command, it is a complete and utter waste of time ans effort, and NSW wastes it's time a money training up someone who will not continue support to the command.

This is begning to look like a upper echolon circle jerk.
EXACTLY! It is not being throught through properly. It just does not make sense on so many levels. I can see now the CG guys that will apply for this program... oh, I can go to BUD/S and be a SEAL for awhile... cool.

Then they go and the leg is cocked back ready to give them that kick in the balls - DOR! DOR! DOR! They quit before the kick even begins (i.e., during indoc). I can honestly say, I do not forsee any CG guy making it through BUD/S - ever. Hell, I doubt any would even make it past Hell Week.

It's a gay idea and a waste of precious time, money and resources. CG does not need combat divers, etc. The missions are so different. I really hope it dies out before it picks up any real speed. Not to mention it fills slots wanted by guys joining the NAVY wanting to be SEALs. Stupid, stupid, stupid idea.

Ugh... the more I think about it, the more it pisses me off. WTF
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  #52  
Old 2 August 2008, 14:57
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Originally Posted by LRS Guy View Post

EVERY Govt Dept wants a "cool guy, HSLD, organization" with the results often less than spectactular and often duplicating missions. Nobody does maritime ops better than the SEALs, but the CG wants its group of Barrel Chested Freedom Fighters that at budget time they can point to. Nevermind may or may not have a mission, or that mission is already taken care of.

Wow, just think about what kind of posers we will get out of these!

I can hear it now,"Hey BABY, I was a career CG, Rescue Diver in Alaska, but I was so good the SEAL TM 6 handpicked me and I was doing combat diving in the Stan to snipe OBL. Yea, after I squared the Frogs away I had to came back to the CG. The stress you know, thats why I'm inspecting light houses....thats standard way to decompress after all the killing you know.....can I buy you a beer?"
Shouldn't that be steely eyed barrel chested freedom fighters and BTW, your pick up line seems like it might just work.

Seriously though, I work with these guys everyday and even though I have met a few that are worth their salt (via this site) most in the words of Jack Web, "Just couldn't pack the Gear" DELETED. I had to delete the ranting and just say what the fuck. Even though I am only a pseudo-frogman, never went to Buds/S, I paid my dues in Key West as a student and an instructor and spent my time in the ocean's of the world. This dog was just not bred to hunt, if you catch my drift.
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  #53  
Old 2 August 2008, 15:03
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This is so fucking ridiculous that I ranted for 3 pages before I could calm down. BP is normal again. I can just say, I will be shocked if this gets any traction. Christ, next they will want to be Green Berets and THAT just won't do.
Back in the 80's the Corp use to send quite a few Recon guys through the entire SFQC and then they went back to Corp upon completion. Imagine SOB knew a few.
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Old 2 August 2008, 15:05
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Originally Posted by FRLEOJOE View Post
Way outta my lane here, but could this possibly be for posse commitatus purposes within U.S territorial waters? I still agree that there are numerous other organizations already with overlapping capabilities in this arena HRT, SOG, BORTAC, Customs SRT. My other question is why do they need to do this when they already have a specops capability with they're MSRT, MSST ect. OOC would probbly have a good take on this as he worked for some of the units just mentioned.
Without violating OPSEC, there has been great debate over who has A, the ability and B, the jurisdiction to re-seize a hijacked vessel, especially one that is going to be used as a weapon. Let's just say that the results of these clashing of shields and gnashing of teeth have been less than desirable. Being a bit clairvoyant, who will fly these guys around? Nightstalkers will then have to train their pilots to approach at night in a blue and orange helicopter with half a million lights on it. When does it end?
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Old 2 August 2008, 15:08
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Back in the 80's the Corp use to send quite a few Recon guys through the entire SFQC and then they went back to Corp upon completion. Imagine SOB knew a few.
My instructor for the Detachment Officers Course (Phase II) was a Recon Marine Major, little guy, became a 2 star I believe. Great leader and instructor. The SF NCO's teased him a bit about his haircut and all but thought he was great.
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  #56  
Old 2 August 2008, 15:16
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Not really.

SOF is far more involved than simply boarding a ship and performing some CQB.


Being that they are DOJ, and subject to the restrictions of a LEO organization, there is precious little they will gain, in terms of utilization of learned skills, they would gain from this program.

5-7 years gives a guy 1 year of BUD/S SQT, 1 year platoon work up, 6 month deployment as a fucking know nothing new guy, 1 year second platoon work up, 6 month deployment as a assistant department rep, possibly a department head, and possibly another platoon.

Barring of course, injury, burn out, or whatever needs his team may or may not have.

O.k., so now our coastie gets a decent feel for how NSW works and moves on back to his CG command. He quickly realizes that the CG world is vastly different than the NSW world, the command, training, departments, support, etc.. and nothing translates. Not only that, but the skills he has learned cannot be utilized into the coast guard mission.


Our young coastie realizes that in terms of how this applies to the CG command, it is a complete and utter waste of time ans effort, and NSW wastes it's time a money training up someone who will not continue support to the command.



This is beginning to look like a upper echolon circle jerk.
Matchanu,

Agreed on the circle jerk and that SOF is a way of life, not just a new patch. They are however, DHS and previously DOT. They get their LEO authority from Title 14 and not title 18 like the FBI etc. None the less, your are correct, they are no way prepared for what lies ahead for them.

IMHO
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  #57  
Old 2 August 2008, 15:36
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Back in the 80's the Corp use to send quite a few Recon guys through the entire SFQC and then they went back to Corp upon completion. Imagine SOB knew a few.
The skills from a warfighter school to another warfighter is one thing. The teams sent some frogmen to Ranger school for a spell, skills gained there only improved the warfighting ability of the teams.


Sending a unit which is, by it's nature, an LEO contingent, or rescue contingent, to a warfighter school, makes no sence at all.
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Old 2 August 2008, 15:39
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Sending a unit which is, by it's nature, an LEO contingent, or rescue contingent, to a warfighter school, makes no sence at all.
x2

Despite our collective disdain for this, you summed it up right here Brother, in one short sentence.
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Old 2 August 2008, 15:57
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If there was a terrorist group on a ship or some type of maritime opn in US home waters, wouldn't the FBI's HRT have that responsibilty?

I'm confused on the Title 14 vs Title 18 thing...must use my "google-fu" on that.

If so then the CG "SEAL/SOF" is another duplication of another LEO's team.

The Fat Guy, you are correct, I should have worked "Steely-Eyed, Barrel-Chested Freedom-Fighters living the No-Slack, Counter-Terrorist lifestyle" in there as well. My apoligies.
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  #60  
Old 2 August 2008, 16:01
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IMO some Coastie comes to BUD/S, SQT, etc, etc and makes it and is attached to the Teams for 5 to 7 years........? Good luck getting him to go back to the CG.

That's exactly right.
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