SBS or KSG

[Joker]

Ok so I have been kicking around the idea of getting a SBS (Short Barreled Shotgun) but those can get expensive especially when adding on the ATF tax stamp and the long wait for approval. So I was at the gun shop the other day and was looking at the KSG; I know there were a lot of feeding issues among other things when they first came out but have heard that these have been worked out on the newer models. As with all things there are pros and cons with each:

870 SBS:
Pros
1. Cool Factor
2. Reliability
3. Availability of parts
4. Familiarity
Cons
1. Price
2. Ammo Capacity
3. ATF (Cost & Wait)
4. Resale Issues
5. Transportation Across State lines

KSG:
Pros
1. Price (Still expensive but less than SBS)
2. No ATF/Wait
3. Ammo Capacity
4. Cool Factor
Cons
1. Reliability
2. Familiarity
3. Availability of parts

So what are your thoughts? Anybody have any experience with the KSG that can shed some light on the reliability issues?

BTW I already have an 870 with extended mag and Magpul furniture so this would be an additional shotgun.

[The Fat Guy]

There are "bullpup" kits for the 870 that alleviate the need for the SBS ATF shotgun.

I see no real value in an SBS for a civilian unless you find yourself in extremely close quarters, especially when the bullpup designs remove the shortcomings while providing the maneuverability. The MagPul furniture help shorten the stock pull, just a bit (Just enough)

Shooting a shotgun tactically requires training and practice. If your biggest con in the KSG is familiarity, you need to plan to overcome that as soon as it gets to your house. This will also dispel your reliability issues, if they exist. There are other similar designs from other companies as well.

I understand the "Have" factor and wanting a tacticool gun, but if you are going to do serious work with this, is the Cool Factor really necessary? Your choice, just a question on my part.

I love my 870's, my oldest one is my front door gun, right behind my American Flag.

[GPC]

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=124804

I like the KSG mine is a Gen 2 and the Gen 3 is out with a different fore end more rounded IIRC. I do know Kel-Tec CS is great and they back their products. I have not needed it yet but know people who have. Supposedly Kel-Tec will upgrade previous generations.

Unlike the 870 or 590A1 the KSG needs a break-in IMO. I got mine second hand so no clue if former owner even shot it. I find the more I shoot it the better it gets. I recommend Hi-Brass ammo to start. Mine eats those mini shells unlike my 590A1 that hates them.

You will feel more recoil with the KSG over the 870 muzzle brake helps though.

There is also the DP-12 but I don't much about it.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by The Fat Guy

Shooting a shotgun tactically requires training and practice. If your biggest con in the KSG is familiarity, you need to plan to overcome that as soon as it gets to your house. This will also dispel your reliability issues, if they exist. There are other similar designs from other companies as well

Yes this is one of my concerns and my availability to a place where I can run several boxes of bird shot through it, the range I go to only allows slugs. As far as other designs I have seen the UTS-15 at the range a couple of times and every one of them had feeding issues with the slugs with one having a missfeed every single round.

Originally Posted by The Fat Guy

I understand the "Have" factor and wanting a tacticool gun, but if you are going to do serious work with this, is the Cool Factor really necessary? Your choice, just a question on my part.

It’s a legit question and it’s probably my biggest hurdle because this will not be a working gun its really just for fun, I don’t need it I just kinda want one.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by GPC

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=124804

That's strange I did a search for KSG before posting and nothing came up, thats the exact info I was looking for.

If any mods want to merge the threads feel free, if I had seen that one I would have posted my question there.

[1RiserSlip]

I don't trust bullpup shotguns. Ones I have researched seem to have feeding /ejection issues. I got the same 7 shot 870 you spoke of. Steiner light on the end cap. Can't go wrong with a proven platform.

Cool is only cool if it works consistently.

[The Fat Guy]

Wilson Combat used to make a SBS for the USBP on an 870 platform. They were definitely tacticooool.

[gavin]

I had a Wilson Combat SBS when I was a cop, great gun. I now have a non-NFA Wilson Combat 870. Also a great gun. I prefer the SBS, but SBS are not permitted under state law in my current state of residence. For shotguns in general, I recommend Remington, Mossberg, Benelli, or FN pump guns. Leave the KSG for Hollywood.

[GPC]

Joker, wanted to add if I could only take one shotgun in a situation I would choose my 590A1 over the KSG. That might change down the road but for now traditional pump is my go to.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by gavin

I prefer the SBS, but SBS are not permitted under state law in my current state of residence.

Not even with a tax stamp?

Originally Posted by gavin

Leave the KSG for Hollywood.

But what if I want to look cool.

[Joker]

Originally Posted by The Fat Guy

They were definitely tacticooool.

Yea the local shop does a pretty good job on them in the 870 platform with Magpul furniture and cerakoting which is what got me to thinking about this, I'll get a pic next time I am in there.

[gavin]

Originally Posted by Joker

Not even with a tax stamp?

Not even with a tax stamp. SBRs, suppressors, and AOWs are legal here, but not SBS or "machine guns."

[GPC]

Originally Posted by gavin

Not even with a tax stamp. SBRs, suppressors, and AOWs are legal here, but not SBS or "machine guns."

There is always the Shockwave.

[gavin]

Originally Posted by GPC

There is always the Shockwave.

Meh, I can get an AOW with a $5 stamp, legal in my state of res. IMO a shotgun without a stock is of questionable utility beyond breaching.

[glockcqc]

Before I carry something; whether, that's a bullet design, cartridge, carbine, pistol, shotgun, I hunt feral hogs w/it & note the terminal ballistics effect that "something" provides.

In the 0-20m world, hands down, THE most effective "something". Is a 12 gauge shotgun using 2 3/4 or 3" 00/000 buckshot. So much so, that I rarely hunt w/it now.

Personal thoughts on SBS vs KSG & other stuff.

In the current "adventure" marketing of defensive/offensive firearms & training. There is/has been a huge over emphasis, on reloading the shotgun vs actual marksmanship. If you understand and can apply the concepts/art of: shot selection, shot placement & time, a 5rd tube magazine is more than you need.

An SBS or a "stake out" is VERY handy for close work. The KSG, not so much.

Good shooting

[Believeraz]

The KSGs I've seen are finicky. If the pro staff (actual employees) of Kel-Tec aren't willing to run them in competition due to reliability issues, I certainly wouldn't be comfortable depending on one to save my life.

Pump: Remington all day long.
Semi: Benelli or Beretta.

[gavin]

I like the 870. I own a Wilson Combat "Standard" 870. It sits in a safe. All the time. If I had a SBS, it would sit next the Wilson. If I am going to run around with a long gun, it's going to be a rifle...HOWEVER, for the OP, SBS or KSG? SBS, hands-down. I would not want a KSG.

[DCH]

Maverick (Mossberg pricepoint) makes the two-shot over/under 12 ga. HS12 shotgun. It’s marketed as a “tactical” shotgun because of its black, polymer stock with shotshell carrier (on the Thunder Ranch model), and picatinney rails on the receiver top, on both sides and bottom of barrel.

Overall length is approx. 2” shorter than a 870 with an 18” barrel, due to both O/U barrels extending towards the rear of breach break.

[KW Driver]

Not sure how small the 870 SBS is without looking, I carried a “breacher’s special” in BN. good for putting a muzzle to door, but I hated it always beating my hip and ribs to a bloody pulp, or adding weight to my ruck. And having to be the 4 man as a result.

They do take practice as said if they’re shorter than 18”

[gavin]

Mossberg/Remington folks (not sure who dreamed up the "Shockwave" first, think it was Mossberg) sat down and gave serious attention to the defining characteristics in the NFA, and what factors specifically define a "SBS," an "AOW," or a "shotgun."

Nighthawk Custom has done the same, but gone a step further. The Tomahawk is the result. I don't think I'll buy one, but it's interesting to see products that everyone would have said "Hey, that's an AOW, regulated by the NFA," but meet the definitions of a "shotgun," not an AOW.