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  #21  
Old 22 June 2016, 10:56
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Train as you Fight.
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  #22  
Old 22 June 2016, 10:58
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
Train as you Fight.
So you plan on fighting in a kiddie pool?
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  #23  
Old 22 June 2016, 11:01
SpudWrench SpudWrench is offline
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We tried to use the pool at the dive facility across the parking lot, but they muttered something about "insurance" and closed the door.

ETA:
In fairness, they did just watch us practice carjacking in the parking lot the week before - watching someone get dragged out of their car through an open window was probably an eye opener. OTOH, it attracted a couple new students.
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  #24  
Old 22 June 2016, 11:28
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Full-speed, no pad sparring sounds badass. Given that the OP is 55 that doesn't sound very smart for him. Frankly, doesn't sound smart for anyone looking to train on any consistent basis or without a frequent customer card at the local medical clinic.
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  #25  
Old 22 June 2016, 11:35
SpudWrench SpudWrench is offline
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Full-speed, no pad sparring sounds badass.
It does sound that way, until you see how we actually hit ("Hit Different"). I'm not trying to knock anyone out, I'm breaking his structure - moving him off balance. It's hard to explain, but there are very few punitive strikes delivered in Systema, that's why we can get away with no pads. Look on the tube for Martin Wheeler - he did fight choreography for "The Double," and his school is in California. Excellent to watch, very graceful.
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  #26  
Old 22 June 2016, 11:36
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In fairness, they did just watch us practice carjacking in the parking lot the week before - watching someone get dragged out of their car through an open window was probably an eye opener. OTOH, it attracted a couple new students.
Serious question: how frequently do people get dragged out of an open window during a carjacking?

I see people (bad guys and good guys) diving into car windows, but don't typically see people get dragged out of the window during a carjacking. Maybe I'm not reading the correct reports or watching the right carjacking videos on youtube.
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  #27  
Old 22 June 2016, 11:42
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It does sound that way, until you see how we actually hit ("Hit Different"). I'm not trying to knock anyone out, I'm breaking his structure - moving him off balance. It's hard to explain, but there are very few punitive strikes delivered in Systema, that's why we can get away with no pads. Look on the tube for Martin Wheeler - he did fight choreography for "The Double," and his school is in California. Excellent to watch, very graceful.
Cool. Always open to the idea of learning new training techniques.

Personally, I believe in (very) punitive strikes. IMHO pads allow people to training harder and longer on multiple levels. The people I train with are professional fighters and not choreographers, so I guess I'm at a disadvantage in this regard.

ETA: Is this what you are talking about? http://wheelersystema.com/martial-arts/video

I think the video speaks for itself.
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  #28  
Old 22 June 2016, 11:55
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Martin Wheeler was a professional fighter, but that's not what I (or the OP) was talking about.

Right now, we are going into the "round and round" of what's the best system for the OP that I had mentioned earlier.

If you truly believe that hitting bags in a gym with pads on your hands will help you be a survivor when you're walking to your car with two bags of groceries, then fine. I hope your awesome T-shirts will scare away any bad guys.

If the OP is looking for a fun, health oriented, unique experience, with real world application, that doesn't require an investment in gear, etc. then give an RMA class a try.
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  #29  
Old 22 June 2016, 12:34
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No one said hitting bags. I watched a few of those vids. There's a whole lot of falling down for no reason there, people throwing themselves, zero control of the knife, etc. I like some of the concepts, but much of it is very dangerous....and not in the good sense of the term.
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  #30  
Old 22 June 2016, 12:55
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No one said hitting bags. I watched a few of those vids. There's a whole lot of falling down for no reason there, people throwing themselves, zero control of the knife, etc. I like some of the concepts, but much of it is very dangerous....and not in the good sense of the term.
I have a problem with a lot of those videos, for similar reasons:
Knife hand too extended - this is something you see in new students. That gets washed off quickly.
Falling down for no reason - not really. Sometimes the only way to take a solid hit or kick that's designed to move your body, is to fall (not the Judo mat slap, but a controlled fall and roll). Guys who aren't afraid of the ground, will go to the ground quickly (and easily). Guys afraid to "crumple" will resist your efforts to move them, increasing the amount of damage they take. Most strikes are designed to calmly move and adjust your opponent's position. Grabbing and pulling are discouraged, as they lead to resistance.
Really hard to explain.
I took my first class as a favor to the instructor, we spent a whole hour walking around in circles and holding our breath. I didn't think I'd come back.
After 3 or 4 classes, when I got some of the attributes down, and learned how to throw and effective strike without tension, doors opened up. I can take a guy's knife 10/10 times, and never do the same thing twice. I couldn't repeat an action exactly if I had tried. It's spontaneous, calm and entertaining. Where's the joy in executing the perfect kick on a bag 100 times? There's no problem solving, mental gymnastics, etc. IMHO.
Last week, I got pinned to the floor by my T-shirt. We went blow for blow, until I got too enthusiastic, and closed the gap. I ended up on the bottom, and somehow his foot got inside my collar on accident. He stood up, and it twisted the neck of my shirt and choked the shit out of me. We couldn't have duplicated that sequence of events if we tried 100 times. That's fun to me, and having come out on top of triple digit numbers of fights (long time bouncer, and always a smart ass), without ever once stepping into a ring, I believe that spontaneity and problem solving will save the day every time.

This is all just my .02, and not criticizing anyone else's "religion." I think Kung Fu and Aikido are the most beautiful of the arts, but not everyone has the time or dedication those studies demand. I show up in jeans, 2x a week, and get a healthy dose of variety and fun.
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  #31  
Old 22 June 2016, 13:03
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
Right now, we are going into the "round and round" of what's the best system for the OP
Perhaps you are, but I've stated the exact opposite in this thread.

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I hope your awesome T-shirts will scare away any bad guys.
How did you know I wear scary t-shirts?!? Are hanging you out inside my OODA loop as well?

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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
...with real world application, that doesn't require an investment in gear, etc. then give an RMA class a try.
Some of us have tried multiple RMAs.

Most have some good stuff with real application...but sometimes reality-based martial arts can also get little separated from reality. Your mileage, and your reality, may vary.
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  #32  
Old 22 June 2016, 13:08
SpudWrench SpudWrench is offline
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...but sometimes reality-based martial arts can also get little separated from reality. Your mileage, and your reality, may vary.
That's the best thing I've seen written on the matter.
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  #33  
Old 22 June 2016, 15:05
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By reality based martial arts I assume you mean BJJ and Muay Thai?
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  #34  
Old 22 June 2016, 15:24
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
I have a problem with a lot of those videos, for similar reasons:
Knife hand too extended - this is something you see in new students. That gets washed off quickly.
I was talking about the defender. There's little to no control from the defender toward the knife.


Quote:
Falling down for no reason - not really. Sometimes the only way to take a solid hit or kick that's designed to move your body, is to fall (not the Judo mat slap, but a controlled fall and roll). Guys who aren't afraid of the ground, will go to the ground quickly (and easily). Guys afraid to "crumple" will resist your efforts to move them, increasing the amount of damage they take. Most strikes are designed to calmly move and adjust your opponent's position. Grabbing and pulling are discouraged, as they lead to resistance.

There wasn't a single solid hit or kick there that would do any kind of damage to a determined attacker. Just because you put your hand on the back of their head and try to turn them, doesn't mean they'll turn, etc.

If you're filled with calm, spontaneous joy, you're not in a real fight, or training for one. No one learns to throw an effective strike in a few classes. Meh.

Last edited by poison; 22 June 2016 at 15:32.
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  #35  
Old 22 June 2016, 16:08
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
By reality based martial arts I assume you mean BJJ and Muay Thai?
Sorry, I should clarify: When I say "RMA" I'm referring to Russian Martial Art, or Systema. I don't have any experience with "reality based martial arts" training.



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Originally Posted by poison View Post
I was talking about the defender. There's little to no control from the defender toward the knife.

There wasn't a single solid hit or kick there that would do any kind of damage to a determined attacker. Just because you put your hand on the back of their head and try to turn them, doesn't mean they'll turn, etc.

If you're filled with calm, spontaneous joy, you're not in a real fight, or training for one. No one learns to throw an effective strike in a few classes. Meh.
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  #36  
Old 22 June 2016, 21:27
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
Seriously, http://systemaarizona.com/.
your post...
Hey, I will check this out, just based on your pride in the system SW, and it is always much more about the quality of people and attitude and creativity of instruction. I'm just trying to break this ground-based single-attacker "mindset" I have. If I'm attacked by two+, and the wife is with me, I have to realistically stay standing (and help her "un-ass the AO!") at all costs. Yup, I actually finally found one worth sacrificing for. LOL. But with the right trained plan and mindset I MIGHT be able to save us both. I'm at the age I can't rely on improvised shit anymore. To slow now...need "economy of motion" and a well-trained "hit-hard-and-run" type of plan.
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  #37  
Old 22 June 2016, 21:55
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Aikido might be an interesting choice, as far as angles, deflecting, and moving out of the line of attack. Not realistic training though.
Exactly. I had a lot of Judo (love that shit, and it saved my ass on my motorcycle!) and tried 6mo of Aikido. It was great and effective IF you can reliably get just the right grip. Not realistic in a gross-motor adreno-dump, without YEARS of practice. But it was cool to learn to use someones wrists and elbows like a f'n steering wheel. The deflection was a LOT like Judo.

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Krav isn't standing grappling. I did krav in Israel, in a gov't course run by the shin bet, three months of 6hrs a day of krav, 6 hrs a day of shooting, straight from the source. It's all elbows, knees, rudimentary kicks and punches, all with the goal of ending the threat and/or getting to your gun asap. They don't separate between hand to hand and shooting, it's all one thing.
That's some great stuff right there! Did they work from the empty chamber drawstroke, or is that just a myth?
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  #38  
Old 22 June 2016, 22:11
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Krav, judo, boxing, muay thai, wrestling will all do the job. At 55yo, I'd throw out wrestling, judo, and muay thai, they'e really hard on the body. That leaves krav and boxing.
This guy seems to be our local recognized expert.
Anybody heard this name?

R.E.A.C.T.™ Defense Systems is the original and only Krav Maga Worldwide™ (KMWW) Regional Training Center in Arizona. Brought by Chief Instructor Jay Ackerman in 2001...etc/
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  #39  
Old 23 June 2016, 00:01
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That's some great stuff right there! Did they work from the empty chamber drawstroke, or is that just a myth?
Yes, everyone but swat/hostage rescue is pretty much empty chamber. It's fine, no problem.
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  #40  
Old 23 June 2016, 00:05
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This guy seems to be our local recognized expert.
Anybody heard this name?

R.E.A.C.T.™ Defense Systems is the original and only Krav Maga Worldwide™ (KMWW) Regional Training Center in Arizona. Brought by Chief Instructor Jay Ackerman in 2001...etc/
Never heard of him, but I don't keep track of the American krav scene.
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