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  #81  
Old 18 July 2016, 22:23
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Excellent video, I can see a problem already with my krav training. Without the wife having training too (ain't gonna happen) I'm pretty much screwed the instant they grab her. Even best case CCW I'm in a hostage situation and possibly outnumbered. Situational awareness, is the best/only defense.

And I also know the smart play is to break contact and haul ass, like the video shows. But I also know my own temper. In every one of those scenarios (if the wife's not with me), I'm going to want to get in a couple extra for my trouble.

Bad attitude. I know.
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  #82  
Old 18 July 2016, 23:06
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While the hand to gland stuff is cool (as is CCW), the best training for the family lies in the pre-contact focus on situational awareness, threat recognition, avoidance, posturing/positioning and verbal skills. Once it becomes physical, the favorable odds begin diminishing rapidly. YMMV.
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  #83  
Old 22 July 2016, 14:50
Ordinary Average Guy Ordinary Average Guy is offline
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Systema, huh?

https://youtu.be/4alf3kyjvp0

https://youtu.be/m6UTq_Q_gyA

https://youtu.be/jQKuhdN_23E

https://youtu.be/ceQ_w1_EOio

It's like nobody in Systema knows how to hold or use a knife.

I'm surprised that Kelly McCann's name hasn't been brought up in this thread yet.

Tried Systema. Tried a bunch of things. Found Crucible. Search over.
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  #84  
Old 22 July 2016, 17:41
SpudWrench SpudWrench is offline
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Vasiliev and Wheeler are legit, I don't know who those other guys are.
Vasiliev is tough to watch, unless you're really on top (and understanding) of his movements - he's too subtle for most people to pick up on the details; I typically watch the attacker instead, to find their mistakes.
I've been in a few, honest to goodness, knife fights. I have the scars to confirm it (I used to fight tough guy bikers at my bar every weekend). I wish I had learned Systema before then, I would have fewer scars.

You don't have to believe me, and frankly I'm not here to impress anyone. I tried Systema as a favor, and became a believer.
The OP laid out his requirements, and I offered my honest opinion.
I didn't mention boxing, judo, BJJ, etc., because while honorable, they didn't meet his requirements. I offered that he should try a trial class at a reputable school, and see if it's a good fit.
Believe what you will, but if you haven't at least tried it out (from a legit trainer) your (anyone's) opinions based on some videos, is worth exactly zero cents.
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  #85  
Old 22 July 2016, 18:14
Ordinary Average Guy Ordinary Average Guy is offline
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Spent three months at Puzikas's school in Sarasota. Made four, one-week trips to Toronto to study with Vasiliev. Two seminars with Ryabko, stateside, then two, one-week and one, one-month trips to Moscow to study under Ryabko and his son. Two seminars with Wheeler. Two seminars with Komarov.
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  #86  
Old 22 July 2016, 18:43
SpudWrench SpudWrench is offline
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Originally Posted by Ordinary Average Guy View Post
Spent three months at Puzikas's school in Sarasota. Made four, one-week trips to Toronto to study with Vasiliev. Two seminars with Ryabko, stateside, then two, one-week and one, one-month trips to Moscow to study under Ryabko and his son. Two seminars with Wheeler. Two seminars with Komarov.
Sorry about your first mention (he's not often discussed in positive terms, but there's some value in his efforts), but that's several thousands of dollars in flights and seminars alone. If you're not a believer, or at least proficient, I don't know what to tell you.

Also, the tone of your previous post, and this post are completely different. "It's like nobody in Systema knows how to hold a knife.." Yet, by your account, you've spent at least 10 weeks with the Masters..? Weird.
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  #87  
Old 22 July 2016, 20:01
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'too subtle for mere mortals to understand', is it? Where I come from, that's shorthand for coughbullshitcough.
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  #88  
Old 22 July 2016, 20:03
Ordinary Average Guy Ordinary Average Guy is offline
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Puzikas's school was local to me when I was searching for some new the deadly, way back when. It was an introduction. No big loss. It wasn't until I researched him later that I concluded that he's a fraud. He never learned Russian the deadly in Spetsnaz; he learned it from Vasiliev after he immigrated over here.

You call them masters; I call them products of the Soviet era who have built a cult around themselves to sell D.V.D.s, seminars, and fantasy training trips to gullible First Worlders. I don't believe that Ryabko and Vasiliev were Spetsnaz, and I don't believe that they trained K.G.B. in this stuff.

I have never seen somebody in a Systema class, other than yours truly, who knows how to hold a knife securely in a saber grip. Never seen anybody index it at the hip. Never seen anyone attack with anything resembling a decent thrust. Never seen anyone who knew how to snapcut. In quartata? Nope. Pasatta soto? Nope. Footwork? Nope? Retracting the weapon hand? Nope. It's all floppy arms lobbing in sloppy attacks from Pluto's orbit at make-the-teacher-look-good speed, and the defenses to those attacks are equally unrealistic and ridiculous. Subtle movement from Vasiliev? Hardly.
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  #89  
Old 22 July 2016, 21:13
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Originally Posted by poison View Post
'too subtle for mere mortals to understand', is it? Where I come from, that's shorthand for coughbullshitcough.
x100.

For my zero cents, the (systema) videos do appear they teach students great flopping techniques. YexpertMMV.
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Last edited by The Corporate Guy; 22 July 2016 at 21:21.
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  #90  
Old 22 July 2016, 23:13
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Originally Posted by poison View Post
"too subtle for mere mortals to understand".
I thought you were above putting words in my mouth, I guess not.

Just so I'm clear here:
Poison: you champion Krav Maga, understandably, yet you "don't follow American Krav" (your EXACT words). So, barring changing his religion, moving to Israel, training with an intelligence service for six months, and being 30 years younger, there is NO WAY that the OP is going to enjoy the benefits of your experience. He's stuck with "American Krav," and that's that.

The Corporate Guy: I'm not sure what you're supporting here - obtuse statements colored with "wisdom" does not good advice make. Was it boxing? MT? BJJ? Again, none of which meet his initial request (boxing is a sport, regardless of what country it's from, for example). Your best comment was early on, and not much substance since. Frankly, you sound like you're showing your ass, YexpertMMV.

Ordinary Average Guy: There is nothing in your profile that supports your day job as a Bravosi swordsman. Your impressive vocabulary aside, you sound like you know what you're talking about, and I'll gladly give you the benefit of the doubt. Personally, if I saw your list of "nevers" I would have not given those instructors a dime, let alone several over months (or years, given your seminar schedule). If you didn't see, or learn a "proper" grip, or thrust or cut or indexing the knife, perhaps your definition of "proper" isn't the same as theirs? I've seen all of those things, and I assume(!) they are "proper" within the constraints of the system. To be honest, if I wanted to learn excellent knife technique, I'd seek out the Phillipinos. BUT, this is important, the OP didn't ask about fighting with knives - so we're just pulling dicks here.
Notice I didn't criticize your recommendation of K. McCann/Jim Grover, but, oh how I could. That's called being respectful of others' advice.

A (new) guy comes here, looking for some friendly advice, maybe some camaraderie and he ends up witnessing a bunch of disrespectful chest-beating.
It's a sad day when I'm the adult in the room.
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  #91  
Old 23 July 2016, 01:28
Ordinary Average Guy Ordinary Average Guy is offline
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I'm not anyone special.

The money wasn't an issue. I'm a nerd; ideas interest me. The Russian stuff was still pretty new at the time, and there wasn't much info available, so I volunteered myself as a beta tester and sampled the Kool-Aid. I don't regret the investment, but I don't believe there's much of value to be had, either.

When a knife can easily be twisted or pulled out of a human hand, especially by grabbing the blade with another human hand, then there is something wrong with the wielder's grip--and his technique.

I learned all kinds of Systema ways of doing things, which all worked well and good at about 80% speed against someone who wasn't trying to actually cave my skull in or or shank my kidney. I learned nothing that would be of use against a committed attacker, legitimately intent on speed shifting through the force continuum, and there is nothing in what filters down from Ryabko that can mitigate a Kni-Comesque attack.

I sought out some Philippinos. It's like standing in a blender. Went back to combatives. I've got nothing to prove; I just want to go home with my tendons and ligaments intact.

I will not be offended in any way if you criticise my inserting McCann's name into the conversation. If you disagree with anything I post in any thread, please offer your thoughts.

If you are offended that I have some criticisms of the sacred Systema cow, that's something I can't really help.
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Last edited by Ordinary Average Guy; 23 July 2016 at 01:57.
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  #92  
Old 23 July 2016, 09:38
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
The Corporate Guy: I'm not sure what you're supporting here - obtuse statements colored with "wisdom" does not good advice make. Was it boxing? MT? BJJ? Again, none of which meet his initial request (boxing is a sport, regardless of what country it's from, for example).
This has been a fun thread and now you are trying to kill the mood with micro-aggressions. I will not have it. Ok, I'll try to be less obtuse for the next paragraph...but it's then back to having fun.

The OP specifically requested "no-nonsense". Systema, whatever redeeming qualities it does have - an despite it's claims to the contrary - it simply fails in that regard. I'm certain there are some very solid aspects to the system and some very competent people in the cult. But no-nonsense it is not.

I don't promote any particular art or system, and if this system works for you then cool. Master it. Enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
The Corporate Guy: Your best comment was early on, and not much substance since. Frankly, you sound like you're showing your ass, YexpertMMV.
I see what you did there...you used my own micro-humor against me...sign of a true martial artist.
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  #93  
Old 23 July 2016, 12:08
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Full disclosure: I have trained in many styles of martial arts. Karate, JKD, Kali, Silat, Muay Thai, Aikido/Aiki-jutsu, BJJ - and most recently Systema for 10 years. Been training for about 35 total years now. I am an instructor in Systema and have been for about 6 years. I have also been a JKD and Silat instructor in the past. I have worked as a bouncer in some of Philly's toughest clubs and did Exec Protection for six years. I have the scars to go along with all of that. Martin Wheeler has been my teacher for 9 years - he is an exceptionally gifted teacher and fighter. Sorry if all that sounds like an ego trip - not my intention - just stating my background. It’s also worth mentioning that Dan Inosanto, Marc Denny and Jeff Imada all now train in semi-private sessions with Martin as they believe Systema is the real deal. I have been honored to participate in these invite-only sessions. Last - Martin’s school is co-owned with Rigan Machado. I doubt Rigan would go into business with someone he didn’t respect.

IMO - find the best martial artist (not art) that can teach you what you are looking for. Yes, I do believe some systems have more applicability than others. But it really comes down to how good your teacher is and what is your personal ability to absorb that system. I have been fortunate to find that teacher - it just so happens he teaches Systema. Trust me folks - Systema is legit if you work with the correct teacher. I will readily admit there are very few Systema teachers out there who can teach it properly - that’s part of the problem.

As has already been said - shop around. Don't be afraid to ask tough questions or expect to see your assumptions validated in practice. If that teacher cannot do it - regardless of the system he is teaching - move on. I see too many folks training in <insert martial art du jour> because of some hype, when many of them cannot handle the most basic of confrontations.

Average Guy - just asking, not trying to engage in a word-battle - have you worked directly with Vlad?
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  #94  
Old 23 July 2016, 12:47
Ordinary Average Guy Ordinary Average Guy is offline
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usmc_3m:

Yes, I studied directly under Vasiliev each time I went to Toronto.

Honestly, I'm not trying to wage any kind of war. Just having a friendly, if heated, discussion.
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  #95  
Old 23 July 2016, 13:26
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usmc_3m:

Yes, I studied directly under Vasiliev each time I went to Toronto.

Honestly, I'm not trying to wage any kind of war. Just having a friendly, if heated, discussion.
Same here. Martial arts/Combatives are like religion and politics. I enjoy the open dialog.
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Old 23 July 2016, 18:11
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Same here. Martial arts/Combatives are like religion and politics. I enjoy the open dialog.
Not to mention...it is the only profession I can think of that has more posers than the military....
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  #97  
Old 23 July 2016, 18:41
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post
Just so I'm clear here:
Poison: you champion Krav Maga, understandably, yet you "don't follow American Krav" (your EXACT words). So, barring changing his religion, moving to Israel, training with an intelligence service for six months, and being 30 years younger, there is NO WAY that the OP is going to enjoy the benefits of your experience. He's stuck with "American Krav," and that's that.
Worse than that...I'm stuck with Phoenix Arizona KRAV! Of which it looks like there's ONE (reputable?) dojo. As soon as I get my empty reloading brass filled, (and that f'n PMP cert for work) attending a demo class is next on the list.

Quote:
The Corporate Guy: I'm not sure what you're supporting here - obtuse statements colored with "wisdom" does not good advice make. Was it boxing? MT? BJJ? Again, none of which meet his initial request (boxing is a sport, regardless of what country it's from, for example).
Actually I've liked TCG's ongoing reminder about the fact that I'm not a young guy, and should train smart. It's real easy (especially with a strong judo background) to think I'm still that guy. Hell, I look in the mirror and I still see that young badass.

In fact I can't understand WHY the young girls heads don't turn like they used to...and WORSE when they DO...they talk to me like I'm some HARMLESS old dude. F#@k, I never wanted to be "harmless". Like I might as well walk out on a f'n iceberg and float away...as if I'm no longer useful to the tribe.

If nothing else, KRAV should help get that confidence back.




...

Last edited by Tycon; 23 July 2016 at 19:09.
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  #98  
Old 23 July 2016, 18:54
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Good video - looks a lot like what we do, except for the very begging and the very end of every encounter.
In our classes, there is no shoving match; hands on = game on.
Also, we don't break contact while the opponent is still lucid.
Aside from the KM standard multiple jabs and knees, it all looks pretty similar.
Exactly. I'm delivering a few extra to make sure they don't get up anytime soon (and if they don't ever get up...tough shit). But I know the smart play is to haul ass ASAP.

Also, motorcycle wise, I went to a open faced half helmet just for that reason. Being "older" it's hard to turn my head as far to check the blind-spots in a full-face. LOL!
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  #99  
Old 24 July 2016, 01:42
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Not to mention...it is the only profession I can think of that has more posers than the military....
Truth, brother !!
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Old 24 July 2016, 11:35
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Originally Posted by SpudWrench View Post

Just so I'm clear here:
Poison: you champion Krav Maga, understandably, yet you "don't follow American Krav" (your EXACT words). So, barring changing his religion, moving to Israel, training with an intelligence service for six months, and being 30 years younger, there is NO WAY that the OP is going to enjoy the benefits of your experience. He's stuck with "American Krav," and that's that.
My comment was in reference to names and schools being mentioned here, not disparaging Krav here overall. IMO, Krav is probably the best readily available option here in the US for self-defense. Yes, it's been changed, and has different goals than what I did, but it has to. The goals are survival, not defending a person or place to the death, and krav schools are businesses, which need to make money. If they did it the way I learned, no one would ever return for a second class.

My judo dojo is very close to the US krav headquarters, I could do either, but I chose judo because IMO if you have years to dedicate to it, or a lifetime, you can go much farther (and I have the general concepts of krav already, as a filter of 'what works'). But if you don't have 5-50 years to become proficient at fighting, krav will get you up to speed faster, and no other (readily available) discipline will teach you self-defense concepts as well as krav. The concepts are far more important than the techniques, IMO. I have been tempted to do a few months at the krav place, recently, just to have an opportunity to try using judo in the krav setting, ie, no gi, against people striking.

Judo is actually far more interesting than many people realize. For example, just contains rudimentary strikes, and defenses against strikes; there's a whole kata dedicated to self-defense against strikes, knives, swords, and gun takeaways; new judo is very sport oriented (which has many many self defense benefits), but if you do judo against an old, high level black belt, there's seriously dirty shit in there far outside the common throws and submissions.

Last edited by poison; 24 July 2016 at 11:52.
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