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  #41  
Old 30 October 2017, 08:48
sinjefe sinjefe is offline
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Yep. This wasn't hard to see coming if you were watching SF from the outside for the last 15 years. Having lived in the same house with more than a couple of ODAs, I can specifically remember listening to the conversations on this topic. There were traditional old school SF guys that tried to make the case that DA was a tool in the toolbox but was not supposed to be the primary mission of SF. The most common comment was if you want to kick doors every night go to the Regiment or CAG. We are here to do SF stuff. Then there was the other side, typically the 18X crowd and young CPTs who felt that they were taking SF in a new direction and the UW/FID crowd were just afraid to evolve. Its pretty apparent which side prevailed.
Ditto. Worked for a year (08 and 09) at the "Combat Advisor Course" at Ft. Riley instructing COIN and CG Operations. You could see it happening as SF turned a blind eye to this even tacitly approving the Army's "foray" because it wasn't seen as sexy enough for SF.
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  #42  
Old 30 October 2017, 09:10
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The most common comment was if you want to kick doors every night go to the Regiment or CAG. We are here to do SF stuff. Then there was the other side, typically the 18X crowd and young CPTs who felt that they were taking SF in a new direction and the UW/FID crowd were just afraid to evolve. Its pretty apparent which side prevailed.
The evolution itself has been entertaining to watch. Plenty of rapid-fire snap shooting the M4 at targets 15 yards away. Plenty of practice quick drawing the Glock to get your 'el Prez' times under 10 seconds.
Plenty of CQB training during PMT...
...then you deploy and spend 6 months baby sitting the ALP - complaining how it takes 50 powerpoint slides to get out of the wire and into the fight.

Very poor focus for the "visionaries" that thought SF should evolve. The end result - big Army is evolving and showing that they can do one a core SF mission with just a month and a half train-up, cheaper budgeting, and less of the drama.
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  #43  
Old 30 October 2017, 09:33
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Originally Posted by Box View Post
The champions of this idea will throw math at all of the nay-sayers to show that they are plenty-well trained after six weeks.

SFQC takes 'about' 52 weeks and it is an MOS producing course. MOS phase takes the longest so lets say 30 weeks to be an 18B/C/D/E. Since the SFABs will already have an MOS, we don't need MOS phase of the Q-course:
...and we are down to 22 weeks

Since they will not be attending SFAS prior to assignment, we can take another 3 weeks from the tally and now we are down to 19 weeks.

Robin Sage takes 4 weeks so the SFABs are now down to 15 weeks.

SERE and SUT wont be needed so there goes another 13 weeks which leaves just two weeks in the SFQC to teach SF guys how to be a (rifle) Green Beret.

The (sage) Green Berets will get 6 weeks of specialized training. When you take away all of those SFQC specific training weeks, a little simple math shows that the (sage) Green Berets will actually get three times as much specialty training in order to serve in an SFAB.

...that's probably why they will get SDAP at a higher rate.


Do the math and you will see that this is actually a great idea.
Long live the legi0n !!!
You need to add MFF for all into the SFQC timeline. Since the SFABs aren't required to be ABN qualified, there's another several weeks to include the associated physicals etc.
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  #44  
Old 30 October 2017, 09:37
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Oh - SNAP
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  #45  
Old 30 October 2017, 10:04
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Complete outsider/ignorant question; I thought the whole FID concept was the bread & butter of SF. Am I missing something? Why would they decide to give that up to another unit/organization. That's like a Marine division giving up the idea of amphibious assaults...
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  #46  
Old 30 October 2017, 10:12
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
Complete outsider/ignorant question; I thought the whole FID concept was the bread & butter of SF. Am I missing something? Why would they decide to give that up to another unit/organization. That's like a Marine division giving up the idea of amphibious assaults...
In layman's terms, IW has 5 components: UW, FID, CT, COIN, and SO. UW is the core mission of SF. FID is a mission that SF is uniquely qualified to perform, but SF does not have primacy for FID.
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  #47  
Old 30 October 2017, 15:23
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Why would they decide to give that up to another unit/organization.
Because there aren't enough Green Berets to meet world wide demand for such support. Demands (or wishful thinking) from every Theater Commander or Country Team across 195 countries. Especially not when the mission involves a large general conflict. For instance...SF never trained trained the entire militaries of nations such as South Vietnam, El Salvador, Iraq, or Afghanistan. Other US military organizations had to do that. And they have to do it today across umpteen countries in modern Africa, South America, or Southeast Asia. On a mostly ad hoc basis. SF is not the only FID game in town. It never was.

SF is tailored to conduct UW. To run insurgencies. By extension to conduct counter-insurgencies and to create indigenous counterpart units (SOF) in a FID environment. To utilize proxy indigenous fighters to get the job done. Whatever that job entails. Generating anywhere from a few thousand to perhaps 70k proxies on the battlefield.

But SF is not configured or manned to train a half million indigenous troops (a national Army). Nations who need to field conventional infantry divisions. Armored brigades. Arty battalions. Aviation regiments. Commissioned Officer academies. Amphibious forces. That job is for conventional advisors. Not Army SF. SF never had a proprietary lock on that mission anyway.

There's not enough SF Groups to do it all. There never have been. Which is why EUCOM/AFRICOM SOF missions (OEF-TS) were run on a shoestring for years after 9/11. Because all Groups (& partnered SEAL Teams) got decisively engaged in other Named Operations: OIF/OEF/OEF-P. AFRICOM got leftovers in terms of SF rotational forces. Not enough GBs to handle all the jobs needing doing.

You can't paint an entire house with only a gallon of paint. But SF can paint one small room or feature of that house really well. It's always been that way.
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  #48  
Old 30 October 2017, 15:54
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Now you long-tabbers know how we felt when Shit-Suzuki gave the black beret to the entire fucking Army 15 years ago! Welcome to the club!
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  #49  
Old 30 October 2017, 16:09
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Still got mine. Doesn't fit anymore. I must have had an Oblio/Zippy the Clown head back when I wore a 2/75 high & tight. LOL.

I was part of that indignant old school Ranger crowd when that monstrously dumbass change was implemented.

However... I'll bet few current Rangers would willingly go back to the black one (if the Army did away with black berets for everyone else). The "new" one has been paid for in blood & sweat.
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  #50  
Old 30 October 2017, 16:17
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I'll bet few current Rangers would willingly go back to the black one (if the Army did away with black berets for everyone else). The "new" one has been paid for in blood & sweat.
You are probably right.

Not only has the new tan been paid for, but the value of the black beret has been super-diluted with all the fuckery of giving it to everyone.

Can't get that back.

I still cringe when I see it worn like a pizza-maker by some fat fuck.

Everybody is a killer! The entire Army! Everyone is high speed! Give Ranger hats and SF hats to everyone! They will look so cool! Nothing is sacred!
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  #51  
Old 30 October 2017, 17:15
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Originally Posted by gavin View Post
In layman's terms, IW has 5 components: UW, FID, CT, COIN, and SO. UW is the core mission of SF. FID is a mission that SF is uniquely qualified to perform, but SF does not have primacy for FID.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Because there aren't enough Green Berets to meet world wide demand for such support. Demands (or wishful thinking) from every Theater Commander or Country Team across 195 countries. Especially not when the mission involves a large general conflict. For instance...SF never trained trained the entire militaries of nations such as South Vietnam, El Salvador, Iraq, or Afghanistan. Other US military organizations had to do that. And they have to do it today across umpteen countries in modern Africa, South America, or Southeast Asia. On a mostly ad hoc basis. SF is not the only FID game in town. It never was.

SF is tailored to conduct UW. To run insurgencies. By extension to conduct counter-insurgencies and to create indigenous counterpart units (SOF) in a FID environment. To utilize proxy indigenous fighters to get the job done. Whatever that job entails. Generating anywhere from a few thousand to perhaps 70k proxies on the battlefield.

But SF is not configured or manned to train a half million indigenous troops (a national Army). Nations who need to field conventional infantry divisions. Armored brigades. Arty battalions. Aviation regiments. Commissioned Officer academies. Amphibious forces. That job is for conventional advisors. Not Army SF. SF never had a proprietary lock on that mission anyway.

There's not enough SF Groups to do it all. There never have been. Which is why EUCOM/AFRICOM SOF missions (OEF-TS) were run on a shoestring for years after 9/11. Because all Groups (& partnered SEAL Teams) got decisively engaged in other Named Operations: OIF/OEF/OEF-P. AFRICOM got leftovers in terms of SF rotational forces. Not enough GBs to handle all the jobs needing doing.

You can't paint an entire house with only a gallon of paint. But SF can paint one small room or feature of that house really well. It's always been that way.
Thanks gents. I appreciate you taking the time to educate me.
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  #52  
Old 30 October 2017, 19:46
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Well my 2 cents on the matter. The units might have value. The command not falling under USASOC is violation of charter is it not? TSCP by its nature is inter-agency correct? Inter-agency chartered to USASOC correct? This unit and its budget are MFP 2 funds yes? for a mission set that is MFP 10 and 11, the prevue of SOCOM? TACON and OPCON issues as well. Also here is a blog post I wrote on other aspects of this issue.

https://www.handldefense.com/2017/10...tter-of-honor/
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  #53  
Old 30 October 2017, 20:32
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As others have pointed out, there are far more opportunities for FID than there are SOCOM elements to conduct the FID.

I don't have an issue with the US Army standing up formations to conduct FID (such as the SFAB). I strongly believe the Army should ensure that the professional development model supports having the right folks in the SFAB, such that those folks don't get penalized (career-wise) for choosing to serve in the SFAB (as was the case with the AFPAK Hands program). If done right, the SFAB program will be a good thing.

I am less inclined to agree with the choices in headgear and SSI for the SFAB. That does not send the right message, IMO. I can support the SFAB concept, while disagreeing with the uniform issues. If the Army were to ask my input (fat chance), I would advise a headgear color and SSI design that does not appear to be imitating SF hats and patches. If the SFABs are to become a permanent formation, they should have distinctive headgear and insignia.
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  #54  
Old 30 October 2017, 21:36
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I just read some comments by GEN Milley (Army CoS and SF-qual'd). Apparently the beret is more of a brown color, based off the British Infantry beret. Some prototypes have have more more greenish tint, but the approved beret will be more brown than green. The SSI design incorporates many historical items (for example, the sword is lifted straight from the MACV patch). There is no tab, in the AR 670-1, "individual award" sense. The "Combat Advisor" tab is part of the patch.

GEN Milley stated that he directed the SFAB folks not to call themselves "The Legion."
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  #55  
Old 30 October 2017, 21:50
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Originally Posted by gavin View Post
I just read some comments by GEN Milley (Army CoS and SF-qual'd). Apparently the beret is more of a brown color, based off the British Infantry beret. Some prototypes have have more more greenish tint, but the approved beret will be more brown than green. The SSI design incorporates many historical items (for example, the sword is lifted straight from the MACV patch). There is no tab, in the AR 670-1, "individual award" sense. The "Combat Advisor" tab is part of the patch.

GEN Milley stated that he directed the SFAB folks not to call themselves "The Legion."
I read his comments as well. He erroneously stated that SF doesn't train the ANA and never have.
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  #56  
Old 30 October 2017, 22:48
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When I went to an AUCC with SF trainers, we non-SF personnel did not have any toys other than M16A2s and some M4s. The SF trainers didn't skip a beat and showed us how to tape whatever light we had to our weapons, including using folded cardboard to make the lights shine straight with tapered HGs. Old school still works.
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  #57  
Old 30 October 2017, 23:20
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I read his comments as well. He erroneously stated that SF doesn't train the ANA and never have.
Yep...I saw that. I'll cut GEN Milley some slack on that one, he has to keep track of quite a bit. He may have forgotten or never knew that SF created the ANA in 2002.
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  #58  
Old 31 October 2017, 08:16
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Now you long-tabbers know how we felt when Shit-Suzuki gave the black beret to the entire fucking Army 15 years ago! Welcome to the club!
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  #59  
Old 31 October 2017, 08:31
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Good post Astronomy. That's what I have always understood as the primary SF mission.

Agreed with Gavin though. The beret & specialty tab isn't needed.

As far as Gen Shitsenki changing the black beret. I dropped my retirement paperwork very soon after. The guys in tan now certainly have earned those.
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  #60  
Old 31 October 2017, 09:37
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Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
Because there aren't enough Green Berets to meet world wide demand for such support. Demands (or wishful thinking) from every Theater Commander or Country Team across 195 countries. Especially not when the mission involves a large general conflict. For instance...SF never trained trained the entire militaries of nations such as South Vietnam, El Salvador, Iraq, or Afghanistan. Other US military organizations had to do that. And they have to do it today across umpteen countries in modern Africa, South America, or Southeast Asia. On a mostly ad hoc basis. SF is not the only FID game in town. It never was.

SF is tailored to conduct UW. To run insurgencies. By extension to conduct counter-insurgencies and to create indigenous counterpart units (SOF) in a FID environment. To utilize proxy indigenous fighters to get the job done. Whatever that job entails. Generating anywhere from a few thousand to perhaps 70k proxies on the battlefield.

But SF is not configured or manned to train a half million indigenous troops (a national Army). Nations who need to field conventional infantry divisions. Armored brigades. Arty battalions. Aviation regiments. Commissioned Officer academies. Amphibious forces. That job is for conventional advisors. Not Army SF. SF never had a proprietary lock on that mission anyway.

There's not enough SF Groups to do it all. There never have been. Which is why EUCOM/AFRICOM SOF missions (OEF-TS) were run on a shoestring for years after 9/11. Because all Groups (& partnered SEAL Teams) got decisively engaged in other Named Operations: OIF/OEF/OEF-P. AFRICOM got leftovers in terms of SF rotational forces. Not enough GBs to handle all the jobs needing doing.

You can't paint an entire house with only a gallon of paint. But SF can paint one small room or feature of that house really well. It's always been that way.
Agree 100%

Now excuse me while I head back to SFAUC for like the millionth time.
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