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  #61  
Old 23 May 2017, 19:06
Chucko Chucko is offline
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Originally Posted by maim View Post
Enoch Powell (my favourite UK politician) 1968.
“Here is a decent, ordinary fellow Englishman, who in broad daylight in my own town says to me, his Member of Parliament, that the country will not be worth living in for his children. I simply do not have the right to shrug my shoulders and think about something else. What he is saying, thousands and hundreds of thousands are saying and thinking – not throughout Great Britain, perhaps, but in the areas that are already undergoing the total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependents, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancées whom they have never seen." As ye sow so shall ye reap.
That sounds like the road many in the US are wanting. Dang idgits.
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  #62  
Old 23 May 2017, 19:16
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(Sarcasm)Because we stole this land from the Indians and we deserve it......
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  #63  
Old 23 May 2017, 20:22
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Unfortunately, nothing can be done about it because it's straight up verboten to even broach the subject.

So today the Branch Chief and I were out and about with a third party and I make the off-hand comment about how the mosquito population was 'blowing up faster than an Ariane Grande concert'. (Yes, it was in poor form, but it came out so fast the brain filter didn't get a chance to catch that one). The comment from the Third Party individual (a woman) was "omg I know right? Isn't that just so crazy? I mean, what is this world coming to??". Usually I'm pretty easygoing and like to keep conversations light, but I sat there and got really serious and just said "For years, anyone with any sort of brain has been screaming from the rooftops that this was going to happen if they [govt/society] kept up with these policies. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, and at some point those that fight for the continuation of those policies will share some of the blame for these incidents.".

Dead silence in the car for a good solid few seconds before the Branch Chief switched the topics to something a little less heavy. But the takeaway is that most people can't even bring themselves to talk about this stuff like normal human beings. Like current events in the world can't be spoken about. And THAT, IMO, is the true roadblock to actually solving the problem --- the lack of the ability to even converse about it in any meaningful manner. It's either sports, the weather, what the kids are doing in school, food, or something equally as innocuous.
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  #64  
Old 23 May 2017, 21:02
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The problem is that a significant portion of the population have not personally been exposed to the shittier sides of humanity. My wife and I discuss this all the time. She's an ER RN and I'm a LEO/Paramedic-we've seen some f'd up people do some truly f'd up things to themselves and other people. We know it can happen because we've seen it firsthand and had to work with it.

But we routinely run into this disconnect with our friends who have different backgrounds and careers-they just don't comprehend that this aspect of people exists. Sure, they'll see it on the news or FB, but it's still an abstract to them. It's not a tangible, present problem. Consequently, it's tough to get them to realize the true nature of many of these societal problems...and the true nature of any corrections to them. It's not that they're willfully ignorant, or that they're stupid or bad people-they just haven't been smacked in the face with this other side of human nature and therefore have a tough time comprehending it.

The corollary to this is, we also tend to have a more f'd up sense of humor, and are usually in the role "cynical jackass" (well, I am at least...) in a lot of conversations. We also tend to think most people are idiots until proven otherwise.
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  #65  
Old 23 May 2017, 23:00
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
But the takeaway is that most people can't even bring themselves to talk about this stuff like normal human beings. Like current events in the world can't be spoken about. And THAT, IMO, is the true roadblock to actually solving the problem --- the lack of the ability to even converse about it in any meaningful manner. It's either sports, the weather, what the kids are doing in school, food, or something equally as innocuous.
I noticed a certain shift in the reaction of people around me.
Before, people were shocked and would talk about it (mostly uninformed BS).
The latest attacks have resulted in less and less reactions. The Manchester bombing? Wouldn't have known about it if I were relying on word of mouth. Nothing. Absolute silence.

When the subject is brought up, it seems to me, people show a little more being "sick of it". Hard to gauge if the silence is just fatigue, but it's defintiely not indifference, judging by the reactions when brought up.

Sure, when going online it's the same old PC bullcrap as always. But it's different with the people around me.
If I am positive I might start to believe that people might start asking themselves questions.
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  #66  
Old 23 May 2017, 23:05
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people are starting to get numb to the terrorism.
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  #67  
Old 23 May 2017, 23:34
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terrorism?

I just thought this was the new normal.
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  #68  
Old 23 May 2017, 23:45
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Originally Posted by Billy L-bach View Post
terrorism?

I just thought this was the new normal.
We become livid over this.......

But not this......

May to Date in Chicago.
Shot & Killed: 36
Shot & Wounded: 196
Total Shot: 232
Total Homicides: 40
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  #69  
Old 24 May 2017, 00:00
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
We become livid over this.......

But not this......

May to Date in Chicago.
Shot & Killed: 36
Shot & Wounded: 196
Total Shot: 232
Total Homicides: 40
If Al Qaeda, ISIS, and Quds Force were in a mutual battle of extermination, we wouldn't care. We might even cheer them on.

When competing groups of drug dealing thugs are in a mutual battle of extermination, and the innocent bystanders consist primarily of people who are relatives / friends / customers of the malefactors who refuse to snitch on the shooters and drug dealers, I don't pay much attention. I don't celebrate their homicidal nonsense because they could accidentally harm decent Americans who can't help being in the way, but if Pookie and Ray Ray tragically deprive the world of each other's crack dealing expertise, I won't shed a tear.

I guess that makes me cold hearted.
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  #70  
Old 24 May 2017, 08:17
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First and foremost, none of them are Americans, or in America conducting that extermination.

Not to sidetrack... then what about drunk drivers killing over 10k people a year? We kill almost 30 people a day.

Look, I make my living protecting people from events like this, but we end up spending billions on technology and those we call booger eaters beat us with a $2.45 decision to move their attack away from the $ 1 billion thingy.

Every life is precious, but why are some more precious than others? Is it intent of the actor?
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  #71  
Old 24 May 2017, 08:43
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
Every life is precious, but why are some more precious than others? Is it intent of the actor?
Thomas Jefferson said that we all are born with God-given rights including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, among others. If no man gave us those rights, no man can take them away except ourselves. I have the right to swing my arm all I want up until it encounters another person's nose, at which point by violating the rights of another I have forfeited my own. Prisons exist for people who have forfeited their liberty by interfering with the rights of an innocent person. By attacking innocents, or providing material support or encouragement to those who do, the terrorists and their sympathizers have forfeited their own rights and made themselves the justifiable targets of righteous destruction.
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  #72  
Old 24 May 2017, 09:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
First and foremost, none of them are Americans, or in America conducting that extermination.

Not to sidetrack... then what about drunk drivers killing over 10k people a year? We kill almost 30 people a day.

Look, I make my living protecting people from events like this, but we end up spending billions on technology and those we call booger eaters beat us with a $2.45 decision to move their attack away from the $ 1 billion thingy.

Every life is precious, but why are some more precious than others? Is it intent of the actor?
We can defend ourselves at the 95+% effectiveness level from Islamic terror by denying Islam access to our nations. No Islam, no Islamic terror. This is not new, this is the normal historical and human dynamic, since there have been humans. Good fences(borders) make good neighbors.

We can have governments remove the incompatible population in a reasonable and orderly fashion, or we can continue to ignore it and we're going to have some truly fearsome characters come to popular power, based on popular sentiment at the lack of government protecting their people, and then we're have a horrendous slaughter, as has happened so many times before.

Because we're weak and can't address uncomfortable facts because they're "hurtful", there's going to be another genocide, one direction or the other. S/F....Ken M
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  #73  
Old 24 May 2017, 11:42
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
...Look, I make my living protecting people from events like this, but we end up spending billions on technology and those we call booger eaters beat us with a $2.45 decision to move their attack away from the $ 1 billion thingy...
First, thoughts and prayers out to the effected families.

Death by 1000 cuts. The booger eaters hit planes with $1.00 box cutters and cost us billions in new Airline security. Another booger eater hits a concert with a hundred dollar (if that) IED and now people will throw money at that. Booger eater steals a truck and runs people down, we throw money at that. On and on. Next, shopping mall at Christmas, next our power grid, next our water supply, next, next, next... We will become bankrupt, just like the Soviets throwing money at the Nuke race.

I see the talking heads took no time to throw the "not all Muslims" propaganda out there. No one wants to acknowledge the 800lb gorilla sitting in the room. God forbid (I mean Allah forbid) that people wake the F up and see that this is very much a religious war, and these things are going to get much worse, unless someone grabs their sack, and starts to hit back where it hurts. It is us against them, because that is exactly how they see it. They are not afraid to broadcast their exact intentions... and you still have people wanting to give these people hugs, and think that more love is needed, and that we need to bring more of them here, because nothing says love like our welfare system.

This incident, like all others recently, is sad to another level. I have a 12 year old daughter, and I cannot imagine getting that call... but, I have some idea of what might be unleashed should that ever happen. I know there are many here that feel the same way. International news story it would make. We need to start doing something about this, because it is going to escalate here too.
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  #74  
Old 24 May 2017, 11:44
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Originally Posted by Medic4070 View Post
But we routinely run into this disconnect with our friends who have different backgrounds and careers-they just don't comprehend that this aspect of people exists.
Many people refuse to admit evil exists; I think because if they admit that evil exists, then they have to face that reality. So much easier to post on FB and eat another scone from Starbucks. Also, the majority of Americans are oblivious to their surroundings. At church a few weeks ago, I noticed the fire extinguisher missing from the kitchen. I asked the lady who handles all the church administration about it and she told me it had to be taken in for maintenance and would be back Monday. She also said I was the first person to notice and ask.
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I have the right to swing my arm all I want up until it encounters another person's nose, at which point by violating the rights of another I have forfeited my own.
Your rights end where mine begin...
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  #75  
Old 24 May 2017, 11:54
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
Is it intent of the actor?
I think it is.

I can go out of my way to avoid shitty traffic or an area with a high rate of car accidents. Might cost me some time in the morning or evening, but if it's that much a concern, the option is available. I can also offload this information to those I care about.

I can protect my home from invasion with security like ADP or being armed. Or, eat the expense and move to a better neighborhood. If I really have the means, I can hire a security guard.

You can also, while traveling, avoid areas that are dangerous if you know enough about the area before hand. Even for the average person instincts can kick in if the are in an area that might be unsafe.

What's so horrible out terrorism is that it's often done in areas where your guard is supposed to be down and there is usually a veneer of protection. More often then not, your protection and safety is out of your hands. Knowing your background, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

A concert is a perfect example of this. Worse, thinking about the audience of this particular concert, you as a parent now have to offload the safety of your kid, who in most cases doesn't have the average's adult sense of danger and unsafe situations, to a third party. That third party responsibility is for all the kids, not just yours.

An attack on an event like this is a deliberate attack on the security that civilized people build, whether direct or implied. Most criminals, even the ones that are shooting themselves in Chicago, wouldn't ever stoop to this.

The kids are the first victims here. But the very close second victim is the veneer of security.
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  #76  
Old 24 May 2017, 13:16
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Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
An attack on an event like this is a deliberate attack on the security that civilized people build, whether direct or implied. Most criminals, even the ones that are shooting themselves in Chicago, wouldn't ever stoop to this.

The kids are the first victims here. But the very close second victim is the veneer of security.
Yes. The civilian casualties are not really the objective here; in a sense, they really actually are collateral damage. The objective is to degrade our ability to fight, disrupting our society, costing us resources, and weakening national will. Civilian casualties are simply an effective means to that end. And they appear more precious because they represent a more fundamental threat. Criminals, while they operate outside the law, are not trying to destroy society --- in fact, they still rely on the framework of society as much as anyone else to pursue their trade...You can't make a living selling drugs to people who have nothing to offer you in return. But terrorists are seeking to tear down society and totally replace it. A more fundamental threat ... which also plays much better on TV's that make their money by touching primal emotions (which is then in turn why civilian casualties make a good means to the end).

A more interesting hypothetical to me is: Is this worse/different than the 42 people killed in Manchester on Xmas Eve, 1944, by V1 rockets? Relative scale makes 42 dead in one bombing in 1944 not worth mentioning, but 22 dead in 2017 a worldwide phenomenon. The preciousness is, unfortunately, not in the individual lives, but in the impact.
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  #77  
Old 24 May 2017, 14:39
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post

Every life is precious, but why are some more precious than others? Is it intent of the actor?
Interesting take. IMO, I don't believe every life is precious. Now, every INNOCENT life is, and maybe that's what you meant.
I for one do get angry when innocents die at the hands of drug dealing thugs, in Pickaghetto. As much as I get angry with the people who suffer at the hands of jihadists.

I believe many Americans have become numb to gang violence, much like many in the ME have become numb to acts of terror.
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  #78  
Old 24 May 2017, 16:40
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
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Reading on another forum that there have apparently been leaks from the US of British intel, even after UK officials pointed it out and asked them to stop.

US leak of Manchester attacker's name strikes new blow to intelligence sharing (Guardian)

Photographs of Manchester bomb parts published after leak (Guardian)
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  #79  
Old 24 May 2017, 16:58
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Originally Posted by Steve83 View Post
The kids are the first victims here. But the very close second victim is the veneer of security.
This is well said and I wonder if it doesn't touch the point made earlier in the thread about the asymmetry of the costs of the threat and the response. It looks to me that there is almost no end of inexpensive attacks that, when successful, increase costs throughout the affected parts of our economy. Rather than hardening every place where people gather, it looks like the US is choosing to accept risk to keep costs from mushrooming, in a fashion not unlike what Israel has chosen.
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  #80  
Old 24 May 2017, 17:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1/ss nuke View Post
Thomas Jefferson said that we all are born with God-given rights including life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, among others. If no man gave us those rights, no man can take them away except ourselves. I have the right to swing my arm all I want up until it encounters another person's nose, at which point by violating the rights of another I have forfeited my own. Prisons exist for people who have forfeited their liberty by interfering with the rights of an innocent person. By attacking innocents, or providing material support or encouragement to those who do, the terrorists and their sympathizers have forfeited their own rights and made themselves the justifiable targets of righteous destruction.
So if I blow your kid up or kill him with my car is he any less dead? Again, is it the veracity of the actor? Whose crime is more heinous?
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