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  #81  
Old 24 May 2017, 17:28
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
We can defend ourselves at the 95+% effectiveness level from Islamic terror by denying Islam access to our nations. No Islam, no Islamic terror. This is not new, this is the normal historical and human dynamic, since there have been humans. Good fences(borders) make good neighbors.

We can have governments remove the incompatible population in a reasonable and orderly fashion, or we can continue to ignore it and we're going to have some truly fearsome characters come to popular power, based on popular sentiment at the lack of government protecting their people, and then we're have a horrendous slaughter, as has happened so many times before.

Because we're weak and can't address uncomfortable facts because they're "hurtful", there's going to be another genocide, one direction or the other. S/F....Ken M
What happens when disgruntled veterans become the next incompatible population? We (Me and you) are probably next on the list. I believe that we are on our way to a shit show with many curtain calls, the question is how close are we to the stage and where the fuck is that trash bag?
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  #82  
Old 24 May 2017, 18:40
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This is well said and I wonder if it doesn't touch the point made earlier in the thread about the asymmetry of the costs of the threat and the response. It looks to me that there is almost no end of inexpensive attacks that, when successful, increase costs throughout the affected parts of our economy. Rather than hardening every place where people gather, it looks like the US is choosing to accept risk to keep costs from mushrooming, in a fashion not unlike what Israel has chosen.
They accept the risk because they they fear they may offend the very ones that pose the risk. Sit quietly and don't make eye contact. That was the plan at Va Tech.
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  #83  
Old 24 May 2017, 19:34
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So if I blow your kid up or kill him with my car is he any less dead? Again, is it the veracity of the actor? Whose crime is more heinous?
I think you're framing the question wrong. If someone mills MY kid, it's heinous no matter who they are or what their motivation/intent.
If someone kills random kids, then it's heinousness is impacted by things like motivation, intent, and amount of tv coverage.
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  #84  
Old 24 May 2017, 20:09
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What happens when disgruntled veterans become the next incompatible population? We (Me and you) are probably next on the list. I believe that we are on our way to a shit show with many curtain calls, the question is how close are we to the stage and where the fuck is that trash bag?
"We" fight, and then win or lose, and from there accordingly. Nations and societies are voluntary assemblies, no one is forcing us to be "us."

It's like "white flight" except we're running out of places to run to. To some people, that point has been reached.

The better question is, why is "my" government and certain elements of "my" society so dead set on bringing antagonistic populations groups into my country? S/F....Ken M
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  #85  
Old 24 May 2017, 20:19
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The better question is, why is "my" government and certain elements of "my" society so dead set on bringing antagonistic populations groups into my country?
Because people like us always stomp out the fire. They hate us for having the fortitude to do what they won't.
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  #86  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:00
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So if I blow your kid up or kill him with my car is he any less dead? Again, is it the veracity of the actor? Whose crime is more heinous?
In all honesty, in both cases I would be strongly tempted to track down and murder those involved regardless of their chosen method for executing my kid.
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  #87  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:11
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Again, is it the veracity of the actor?
I understand where you are going with intent, but can you clarify this one? I'm a helo guy, small words please.
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  #88  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:32
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Originally Posted by Baildog View Post
I think you're framing the question wrong. If someone mills MY kid, it's heinous no matter who they are or what their motivation/intent.
If someone kills random kids, then it's heinousness is impacted by things like motivation, intent, and amount of tv coverage.
For Fuck's Sake.....OK, To make it painfully clear, if someone blows up a bus full of kids or kills the same kids from driving drunk, why is the outrage, punishment and reaction so different?
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Last edited by The Fat Guy; 24 May 2017 at 22:40.
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  #89  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:36
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OK, To make it painfully clear, if someone blows up a bus full of kids or kills the same kids from driving drunk, why is the outrage, punishment and reaction so different?
OK, I understand where you are coming from now, but I don't have a good answer for you. Because people are humans and their reactions are illogical, I guess.
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  #90  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:37
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OK, To make it painfully clear, if someone blows up a bus full of kids or kills the same kids from driving drunk, why is the outrage, punishment and reaction so different?
For people like me, there is no difference between the two concerning the outrage. However, many -- if not most people -- see the drunk driving idiot as anyone of themselves that may have simply "made a mistake" and had no specific intent to kill children or anyone else for that matter. But, the guy who blows up kids intentionally -- in their way of thinking -- is a special kind of devil because he had the specific intent to do so.

Last edited by Agoge; 24 May 2017 at 22:56. Reason: Clarification
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  #91  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:49
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For Fuck's Sake.....OK, To make it painfully clear, if someone blows up a bus full of kids or kills the same kids from driving drunk, why is the outrage, punishment and reaction so different?
Because most humans see the drunk killing as something avoidable and the direct planned targeting of kids as an act of savages.
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  #92  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:56
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For people like me, there is no difference between the two. However, many -- if not most people -- see the drunk driving idiot as anyone of them that may have simply "made a mistake." But, the guy who blows up kids intentionally -- in their way of thinking -- is a special kind of devil. Never-mind the drunk idiot intentionally got behind the wheel knowing they were drunk.
Apples to oranges. While not a simple mistake, drunk didn't sit around planning to kill kids.
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  #93  
Old 24 May 2017, 22:57
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Apples to oranges. While not a simple mistake, drunk didn't sit around planning to kill kids.
I reposted at the same time you posted this. See my correction.
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  #94  
Old 25 May 2017, 00:19
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For Fuck's Sake.....OK, To make it painfully clear, if someone blows up a bus full of kids or kills the same kids from driving drunk, why is the outrage, punishment and reaction so different?
Different intentions. Though the result was the same, the drunk was not intending bodily harm. The bomber was.
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  #95  
Old 25 May 2017, 01:06
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The problem is that a significant portion of the population have not personally been exposed to the shittier sides of humanity. My wife and I discuss this all the time. She's an ER RN and I'm a LEO/Paramedic-we've seen some f'd up people do some truly f'd up things to themselves and other people. We know it can happen because we've seen it firsthand and had to work with it.

But we routinely run into this disconnect with our friends who have different backgrounds and careers-they just don't comprehend that this aspect of people exists. Sure, they'll see it on the news or FB, but it's still an abstract to them. It's not a tangible, present problem. Consequently, it's tough to get them to realize the true nature of many of these societal problems...and the true nature of any corrections to them. It's not that they're willfully ignorant, or that they're stupid or bad people-they just haven't been smacked in the face with this other side of human nature and therefore have a tough time comprehending it.

The corollary to this is, we also tend to have a more f'd up sense of humor, and are usually in the role "cynical jackass" (well, I am at least...) in a lot of conversations. We also tend to think most people are idiots until proven otherwise.
Ding!
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  #96  
Old 25 May 2017, 03:17
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One COULD be negligence..
The other CAN ONLY BE premeditated (with malice and aforethought)
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  #97  
Old 25 May 2017, 03:26
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  #98  
Old 25 May 2017, 07:35
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British to stop sharing Intel with U.S. because of leaks

So what's going on here?

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/british-pm-may-challenge-trump-over-intelligence-leaks-073459071.html

Perhaps POTUS was right when he lambasted the Intel community early on. It looks like the goal is to undermine this President at every turn. There are some rats in the kitchen that need to be disposed of.
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  #99  
Old 25 May 2017, 07:55
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
They accept the risk because they they fear they may offend the very ones that pose the risk. Sit quietly and don't make eye contact. That was the plan at Va Tech.
Prayers for the families and friends of those killed and a full and speedy recovery to the injured. And prayers to the professionals (LEOs and intelligence agents etc.) wherever they may be to find each and every last one of them who even remotely had anything to do with this heinous act and remove them from the face of the earth (wishful thinking on my part but at least throw them so far under the jail that they are never seen again).

I saw the videos of the panicked crowd stampeding and I've been thinking about how you should react in this situation so as not to get injured from being trampled. I have no idea about the best way to protect myself & whoever I'm with. So if I'm at a crowded venue say in the middle of the crowd how do you handle that situation?

What's the best thing to do? Hunker down and possibly get trampled? Move against the direction crowd is stampeding again with the possibility of being trampled. Or move in same direction as the panicked stampeding crowd?

I've been thinking about how that should be handled.

My first thought is to avoid venues like this but not because I'm afraid of a terrorist attack. I wouldn't stop my activities because of the terrorists. However, I totally hate crowds. Avoid them like the plague. I prefer to watch my concerts and football etc on the TV tho we DO go to shows like Cirque du Soleil, the ballet, symphony and plays and venues are way smaller than concerts like in a Manchester.

A quick Wednesday trip to the grocery store at 10am makes me wish I had a cattle prod.

Back to my question how is the best way to protect yourself in a situation like that?

Thanks.
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  #100  
Old 25 May 2017, 08:04
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
For Fuck's Sake.....OK, To make it painfully clear, if someone blows up a bus full of kids or kills the same kids from driving drunk, why is the outrage, punishment and reaction so different?
I completely get what you're saying, and I apply it to many incidents...I recall a shooting in Cancun back in January that stirred up a big fuss, yet as you state, shootings in Chicago are ignored. My response to THOSE types of things, is simple...the population expects things like that to happen in Chicago. They don't expect it in more "civilized" areas. It doesn't make the response any less ridiculous.

This incident is completely different in my opinion. To quote Ender's Game, "how you win matters." This was an intentional act against a civilian populace. While the end result is equally as devastating, the practice must be paid a little more attention to considering it was intentional. I believe it warrants a little more of a "shock and awe" response in an attempt to dissuade something like this from happening in the future. Of course, on the flip side of the coin, all the extra attention the incident is getting may in fact do the exact opposite.

This incident reminded me of an incident we had overseas. We got hit by an SVEST and lost some guys. The shitty part was that 2 small children (about 5 and 7) were killed in the process. That's what upset some of the guys the most...we all knew what we were getting into and what was at stake. The children did not.
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