Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Movies and TV

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 24 September 2017, 15:36
Remington Raider's Avatar
Remington Raider Remington Raider is offline
True Origin Not Known
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: peanut gallery
Posts: 1,962
Righto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
I read a study long ago, that US forces won over 95% of the tactical engagements with the VC/NVA. Despite the strategic and tactical surprise during the Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese were crushed within a week. The Viet Cong ceased to exist, and the NVA regulars had to pick up the slack from 1968 to 1972. We didn't do that with drug addicts, scared teenagers or hippies.
I can't cite where I read it, but I remember that, after the war, some NVA general said that the North's politboro was evenly split after the Tet Offensive about continuing to fight or suing for peace. The "continuing the fight" faction prevailed after they showed Walter Cronkite saying we have lost the war. Rot in hell, Walter.
__________________
Wolves and alligators should be cross-bred to make wolfagators that will be silent and fast, and we'll never have to hear from those people, they will just be wolfagator shit.
-Eltrane

Are you fucking serious? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week...and I'm at a senior staff planning conference, so, the bar has been set pretty high. You should be proud. - Gavin
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 26 September 2017, 00:22
Lefty's Avatar
Lefty Lefty is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 620
During Tet '68 the VC shadow government emerged, believing the VN people would rise up and join them in the fight or at least give them support. The NVA also believed their own propaganda. The much vaunted "popular uprising" did not occur, and the VC were virtually eliminated as a factor in the war.

The NVA frustration with the failed uprising led them to massacre thousands of civilians in the cities of Hue and Danang. Mass graves were uncovered in the weeks and months following Tet, but they were given little notice in US media. (surprise, surprise)

With the mass casualties suffered in the failed Tet offensive, the average age of the NVA soldier went from 17-18 yrs. to 15 yrs.

During my time (70 - 71) the local VC in my AO were loosely organized thugs who would hit soft targets from time to time.

ARVN units varied in competence from abominable to proficient. There are many who would disagree, but IMHO the ARVN Airborne, BDQs, and Marines were often on a par with most US line units. A major advantage over US troops was their unit cohesion. Unlike US units which had constant shuffling of the deck due to overlapping one year tours, the BDQs, for example, kept the same men in the same units as a constant. Every man knew his job and knew the men in his unit, which resulted in effective teams. They also knew every terrain feature in their AO intimately, almost down to every rock and tree.

I could write all night about this, but I will try to keep to the salient points.
__________________
In every organization there will always be one person who knows what is going on.
This person must be fired.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 26 September 2017, 00:40
ET1/ss nuke's Avatar
ET1/ss nuke ET1/ss nuke is offline
If you don't smell ozone, the radiation won't kill you before next week.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: sc
Posts: 5,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
A major advantage over US troops was their unit cohesion. Unlike US units which had constant shuffling of the deck due to overlapping one year tours.
My dad used to say that while deployed to Vietnam he would frequently discover that he and his men had suddenly become members of a different battalion in a different regiment. Apparently push pins moved on a map indicating that units were moving from one place to another, but on the ground all that changed was the name of the organization with the men remaining in place. That produced significant confusion in coordinating artillery support and unending frustration with getting mail delivered properly. Whether the people back in Washington were aware that units were not actually moving when their unit symbols on a map moved is unknown.
__________________
"I don't know whether the world is run by smart men who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Twain

"I agree that his intentions are suspect, and that he likely needs to die...." - SOTB

"Just a lone patriot acting alone at a fulcrum point, ideally in a deniable fashion. A perpetrator of accidents." - Magician
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 26 September 2017, 01:06
Lefty's Avatar
Lefty Lefty is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1/ss nuke View Post
My dad used to say that while deployed to Vietnam he would frequently discover that he and his men had suddenly become members of a different battalion in a different regiment. Apparently push pins moved on a map indicating that units were moving from one place to another, but on the ground all that changed was the name of the organization with the men remaining in place. That produced significant confusion in coordinating artillery support and unending frustration with getting mail delivered properly. Whether the people back in Washington were aware that units were not actually moving when their unit symbols on a map moved is unknown.
Yes, this occurred during Nixon's "Vietnamization" program, where units were officially sent home. The men were re-distributed among other units while the main thing that went back to the states was unit colors.
__________________
In every organization there will always be one person who knows what is going on.
This person must be fired.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 26 September 2017, 07:10
RedDawg_03's Avatar
RedDawg_03 RedDawg_03 is offline
Pirate and Rogue
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Savannah River Area
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
During Tet '68 the VC shadow government emerged, believing the VN people would rise up and join them in the fight or at least give them support. The NVA also believed their own propaganda. The much vaunted "popular uprising" did not occur, and the VC were virtually eliminated as a factor in the war.

The NVA frustration with the failed uprising led them to massacre thousands of civilians in the cities of Hue and Danang. Mass graves were uncovered in the weeks and months following Tet, but they were given little notice in US media. (surprise, surprise)

With the mass casualties suffered in the failed Tet offensive, the average age of the NVA soldier went from 17-18 yrs. to 15 yrs.

During my time (70 - 71) the local VC in my AO were loosely organized thugs who would hit soft targets from time to time.

ARVN units varied in competence from abominable to proficient. There are many who would disagree, but IMHO the ARVN Airborne, BDQs, and Marines were often on a par with most US line units. A major advantage over US troops was their unit cohesion. Unlike US units which had constant shuffling of the deck due to overlapping one year tours, the BDQs, for example, kept the same men in the same units as a constant. Every man knew his job and knew the men in his unit, which resulted in effective teams. They also knew every terrain feature in their AO intimately, almost down to every rock and tree.

I could write all night about this, but I will try to keep to the salient points.

Sorry for my ignorance Lefty....BDQ?
__________________
My suggestion to you is to start drinking heavily - Bluto Blutarsky

Stupid should be a medical diagnosis - Texan


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 26 September 2017, 09:26
Lefty's Avatar
Lefty Lefty is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 620
Biet Dong Quan - Vietnamese Rangers. Started with assistance from US, they had their own Ranger School modeled after US Army Ranger School. Some of their officers attended our own Ranger School.
__________________
In every organization there will always be one person who knows what is going on.
This person must be fired.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 26 September 2017, 10:04
CAP MARINE's Avatar
CAP MARINE CAP MARINE is offline
0311/8651
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 3,033
I think we had some PFs/RFs in our village?up the road was an ARVN compound. They were pretty aggressive. I just can't remember much. My second Platoon,a mobile CAP, we pretty much took care of ourselves.
__________________
Guy "Landmine"Melton
We all died a little in that war-Josey Wales
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 26 September 2017, 10:27
RedDawg_03's Avatar
RedDawg_03 RedDawg_03 is offline
Pirate and Rogue
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Savannah River Area
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
Biet Dong Quan - Vietnamese Rangers. Started with assistance from US, they had their own Ranger School modeled after US Army Ranger School. Some of their officers attended our own Ranger School.
Thank you sir!
__________________
My suggestion to you is to start drinking heavily - Bluto Blutarsky

Stupid should be a medical diagnosis - Texan


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 26 September 2017, 15:55
Paperpusher Paperpusher is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Under the covers
Posts: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lefty View Post
During Tet '68 the VC shadow government emerged, believing the VN people would rise up and join them in the fight or at least give them support. The NVA also believed their own propaganda. The much vaunted "popular uprising" did not occur, and the VC were virtually eliminated as a factor in the war.

The NVA frustration with the failed uprising led them to massacre thousands of civilians in the cities of Hue and Danang. Mass graves were uncovered in the weeks and months following Tet, but they were given little notice in US media. (surprise, surprise)

With the mass casualties suffered in the failed Tet offensive, the average age of the NVA soldier went from 17-18 yrs. to 15 yrs.

During my time (70 - 71) the local VC in my AO were loosely organized thugs who would hit soft targets from time to time.

ARVN units varied in competence from abominable to proficient. There are many who would disagree, but IMHO the ARVN Airborne, BDQs, and Marines were often on a par with most US line units. A major advantage over US troops was their unit cohesion. Unlike US units which had constant shuffling of the deck due to overlapping one year tours, the BDQs, for example, kept the same men in the same units as a constant. Every man knew his job and knew the men in his unit, which resulted in effective teams. They also knew every terrain feature in their AO intimately, almost down to every rock and tree.

I could write all night about this, but I will try to keep to the salient points.
It was reported (at HQUSARV) after Tet that there were bodies picked off the wire at Tan Sohn Nhut that appeared to be 12-year-olds. Their rifles were still in cosmolene.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 26 September 2017, 16:03
Sigi's Avatar
Sigi Sigi is offline
Life is simple, not easy.
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 3,505
I am on Episode 3 and it is important for me to watch this series. I majored in History and took 2 really good classes on the Vietnam War, so I had a decent understanding of the corruption and incompetence on both sides. But that was a birds eye view.

You don't quite get a sense of the on-the-ground view of heroism and sacrifice of both the US and Vietnamese soldiers. Certainly I didn't expect to be so emotional watching this series so far.

I am a civilian, I have no idea what you men and women go through, but I've inhaled more than a few times choking back tears at the shear....awesomeness.

It's hearing men like Hal Moore discuss the aftermath of La Drang, or Charlie Beckwith discuss the actions of his men (and the Viet Cong) after an attack along the southwestern border where Special Forces had a 12 man team stationed.

It's gallantry, courage, bravery, valor that I associate with those fighting in this war, and always has been this way for me. I read books on SEAL's and Special Forces under the MACV-SOG so certainly that painted my viewpoint. Up to Episode 3 there hasn't been any mention of MACV-SOG so shame on me for not realizing that encompassed so many of our forces.

Neil Sheehan had a quote at the end of E3 after being present at La Drang, and I am paraphrasing:

Quote:
"I saw them fight. It always galls me that the WW2 generation is the greatest generation. These men were as gallant and courageous as any fighting men in WW2."
Afterwards Hal Moore gave a view on his men after the La Drang battle, and the tears just started to flow for me. We do in fact serve an ungrateful nation when we send our troops into the meat grinder again to this day.

I will say the enemy we fought was courageous and dedicated, focused and determined, brave and valiant. They were not going to allow any outside invader to determine the outcome of their nation. You have to respect that, which we certainly failed to do, and perhaps still do today.
__________________
bravodelta: "If they start taxing lapdances, I think I'll call it quits and become a chaplain."

Chaplain: "God moves in mysterious ways...", but ... well.... uhh... welcome aboard!


"If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
William Tecumseh Sherman
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 26 September 2017, 23:29
Marvin Blank Marvin Blank is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Paradise
Posts: 194
For those of you who know a bit about Ia Drang from the movie or the book, I encourage you to watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfS3Erh-IZU

It's an old special about Hal Moore and some other veterans returning to the battlefield in '96. The first 24 minutes are about LZ XRay, and is interesting to watch if you are into history. But starting at minute 24, it becomes about LZ Albany, which is very briefly touched upon in the Ken Burns documentary. Basically, it's a litttle known battle where a US BN is almost wiped out because of stupid leadership decisions immediately after X Ray. Extremely horrifying and brutal battle. Some of the hardest interviews I've watched. Most don't know about the battle as DoD at the time covered it up a bit (they couldn't really spin it as a victory like X Ray).
__________________
"I'M A LEAD FARMER, MOTHERF%$KER!!!!!" - Tropic Thunder
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 27 September 2017, 03:59
agonyea's Avatar
agonyea agonyea is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Home of the Infantry
Posts: 1,842
I saw the episode where they showed troops in the Mekong Delta and some in the Mobile Riverine Force. For about a minute or 2. Good so they couldn't come up with some war crimes or atrocities on us.
You can still see the liberal attitude in this series. If you didn't know better you would think the grunts didn't do to much in this war.
I was wondering on the wall how many of those names were Infantryman, Airborne, Ranger, Special Operations Soldiers.
How many were politicians, liberals, journalists, camera man on the wall ?
Why do they get to write about us grunts ?
__________________
"And the fallen Angels took to flight transformed into fierce beasts, and fell upon their prey" Dante
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 27 September 2017, 13:44
Streck-Fu's Avatar
Streck-Fu Streck-Fu is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 1,321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cj View Post
I'm not impressed with Burns in this project as he is following a narrative and is not sticking with the facts or demonstrating even the slightest bit of objectively.
I have waiting on watching this series to see how it is received among the several veteran forums I participate in with this being the primary litmus test.

I was not very impressed with Burns' documentaries on The Roosevelts or Prohibition for adhering to the narrative too much. No longer did he have the balance of the Civil War.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 27 September 2017, 16:11
tm3e tm3e is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 513
'The return of Private Youngblood' is very poignant. On youtube
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 27 September 2017, 18:11
Agoge Agoge is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,087
I liked it. There isn't a documentary made these days that don't have a bias for one way or the other. They are made by humans with opinions who sometimes get in the way of facts based on their perspective. Without that said, I saw and learned some things that I didn't previously know and also saw some other things I disagreed with, but in the end, I liked it overall.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 28 September 2017, 12:22
Paperpusher Paperpusher is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Under the covers
Posts: 182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
I liked it. There isn't a documentary made these days that don't have a bias for one way or the other. They are made by humans with opinions who sometimes get in the way of facts based on their perspective. Without that said, I saw and learned some things that I didn't previously know and also saw some other things I disagreed with, but in the end, I liked it overall.
Perhaps I would be more interested in the ". . . I saw and learned some things . . ." if something specific were offered. In the context of these presentations being made on tv that are somewhat (or more) biased, I might be able to know whether what you learned was fact or whether you might have been conned. My wife sent me two newspaper clippings while I was at Long Binh in '68. One was titled something to the effect that "Long Binh [was] Shaken by Rocket Attack." It scared her. I explained that there were about a dozen 122mm rockets launched toward Long Binh, one of which impacted (harmlessly) inside the wire and all the rest landed outside the perimeter wire. This happened quite a distance from where I was and easily understood if you know that Long Binh/Bien Hoa complex was something along the order of 3 miles E-W and about 5 miles in an arc N-S. I assure you that Long Binh was not shaken by it. It was a combat zone. Artillery fire, periodic B52 runs, incoming/outgoing choppers, small arms fire, automatic weapons fire, all of it went on around the clock. I had to ask around to confirm the 122mm rockets. The other article concerned a bridge that was on Highway 1 between Long Binh and Saigon. The title was something like "Bridge Overrun by Sappers." It was almost accurate. Roughly six sappers ran across the bridge before all of them were shot and killed. I think it was US troops that shot them all, but I can't recall any more. I can speak specifically to those two newspaper articles and show the disgusting and persistent anti-American culture in "news" organizations. It was everywhere.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 28 September 2017, 12:28
Agoge Agoge is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 6,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperpusher View Post
Perhaps I would be more interested in the ". . . I saw and learned some things . . ." if something specific were offered. In the context of these presentations being made on tv that are somewhat (or more) biased, I might be able to know whether what you learned was fact or whether you might have been conned. My wife sent me two newspaper clippings while I was at Long Binh in '68. One was titled something to the effect that "Long Binh [was] Shaken by Rocket Attack." It scared her. I explained that there were about a dozen 122mm rockets launched toward Long Binh, one of which impacted (harmlessly) inside the wire and all the rest landed outside the perimeter wire. This happened quite a distance from where I was and easily understood if you know that Long Binh/Bien Hoa complex was something along the order of 3 miles E-W and about 5 miles in an arc N-S. I assure you that Long Binh was not shaken by it. It was a combat zone. Artillery fire, periodic B52 runs, incoming/outgoing choppers, small arms fire, automatic weapons fire, all of it went on around the clock. I had to ask around to confirm the 122mm rockets. The other article concerned a bridge that was on Highway 1 between Long Binh and Saigon. The title was something like "Bridge Overrun by Sappers." It was almost accurate. Roughly six sappers ran across the bridge before all of them were shot and killed. I think it was US troops that shot them all, but I can't recall any more. I can speak specifically to those two newspaper articles and show the disgusting and persistent anti-American culture in "news" organizations. It was everywhere.
Undoubtedly that happens. I am in full agreement with you on that point. But, it's incumbent upon the reader, listener, or viewer to do their independent study to determine the veracity of the information they are taking into their brain housing group. If they take anything as gospel on its face value then it's on them if they are fooled or guided by it.

And, I am sincerely sorry that your wife -- and more than likely, many others -- had to deal with that type of bad press. I simply wish we had a press that just "reported" what happened rather than feel they need to editorialize everything.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 28 September 2017, 13:18
RedDawg_03's Avatar
RedDawg_03 RedDawg_03 is offline
Pirate and Rogue
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Savannah River Area
Posts: 875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paperpusher View Post
Perhaps I would be more interested in the ". . . I saw and learned some things . . ." if something specific were offered. In the context of these presentations being made on tv that are somewhat (or more) biased, I might be able to know whether what you learned was fact or whether you might have been conned. My wife sent me two newspaper clippings while I was at Long Binh in '68. One was titled something to the effect that "Long Binh [was] Shaken by Rocket Attack." It scared her. I explained that there were about a dozen 122mm rockets launched toward Long Binh, one of which impacted (harmlessly) inside the wire and all the rest landed outside the perimeter wire. This happened quite a distance from where I was and easily understood if you know that Long Binh/Bien Hoa complex was something along the order of 3 miles E-W and about 5 miles in an arc N-S. I assure you that Long Binh was not shaken by it. It was a combat zone. Artillery fire, periodic B52 runs, incoming/outgoing choppers, small arms fire, automatic weapons fire, all of it went on around the clock. I had to ask around to confirm the 122mm rockets. The other article concerned a bridge that was on Highway 1 between Long Binh and Saigon. The title was something like "Bridge Overrun by Sappers." It was almost accurate. Roughly six sappers ran across the bridge before all of them were shot and killed. I think it was US troops that shot them all, but I can't recall any more. I can speak specifically to those two newspaper articles and show the disgusting and persistent anti-American culture in "news" organizations. It was everywhere.

Same crap is going on today. Turn on your TV to ANY news station and you will see this same BS/slanted/NOT REAL NEWS happening. We have come so far and really gotten no where
__________________
My suggestion to you is to start drinking heavily - Bluto Blutarsky

Stupid should be a medical diagnosis - Texan


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 28 September 2017, 23:44
8654maine 8654maine is online now
Another pool cleaner
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDawg_03 View Post
Same crap is going on today. Turn on your TV to ANY news station and you will see this same BS/slanted/NOT REAL NEWS happening. We have come so far and really gotten no where
Absolutely.

I agree with Agoge about each reader making informed decisions.

But that matrix gets muddied by the sloppy journalism of our current media.

Tabloid journalism has become mainstream.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 29 September 2017, 00:20
ET1/ss nuke's Avatar
ET1/ss nuke ET1/ss nuke is offline
If you don't smell ozone, the radiation won't kill you before next week.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: sc
Posts: 5,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
Tabloid journalism has become mainstream.
Since forever. Yellow journalism, government / corporate / personal propaganda, false advertising, blatant lies, and character assassination are as old as the invention of writing. There is now greater and easier access to information across topic areas, so the lies are easier to spot and more likely to be publicly discussed. Someone around here has a sig line of William T. Sherman's complaint about lying newspaper reporters always being around. Augustus Caesar and Philip of Macedon faced the same problems.
__________________
"I don't know whether the world is run by smart men who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Twain

"I agree that his intentions are suspect, and that he likely needs to die...." - SOTB

"Just a lone patriot acting alone at a fulcrum point, ideally in a deniable fashion. A perpetrator of accidents." - Magician
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:19.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET