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Old 27 March 2009, 14:03
VMI_Marine VMI_Marine is offline
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Contracted CAS

Anyone work with these guys? The EWTGs have taken to contracting them to help fill their required sorties to train TACP students. I was pretty bummed that I couldn't get out to the hill this week in time to log some A-4 controls. I have heard that they are GTG, and fun to work with.
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Old 27 March 2009, 14:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMI_Marine
I was pretty bummed that I couldn't get out to the hill this week in time to log some A-4 controls....
You've never called in A-4s? How old are you?



On a serious note, how cool would it be to have a company that contracted CAS training support? VERY COOL.

But does this say something about the numbers of available AC in our mil inventory?
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Old 27 March 2009, 15:09
rgrjoe175 rgrjoe175 is offline
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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
You've never called in A-4s? How old are you?
Perhaps the better question is how ancient are you?...LOL
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Old 27 March 2009, 15:28
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Perhaps the better question is how ancient are you?...LOL
HA ha HA.

Now if that isn't an ironic comment.

Weren't you falling off motorcycles before I had a Bigwheel?
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Old 27 March 2009, 16:21
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But does this say something about the numbers of available AC in our mil inventory?
More about why the Marines need an Attack a/c vice a Fighter a/c. If it has "F" in it's nomenclature the JFACC (Air Force) wants it for "F" roles and missions.

AV-8's don't get pulled for JFACC msn's. F-18's are always getting pulled. At least the AV-8's can drop JDAMS now.
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Old 27 March 2009, 17:09
Tenn-RGR Tenn-RGR is offline
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Do they provide any sensor work, IE ROVER or pod talk-ons? I would think the aircraft dont have those capes but you never know.
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Old 27 March 2009, 19:09
VMI_Marine VMI_Marine is offline
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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
You've never called in A-4s? How old are you?
So, was it hard to hit the target when the pilot was dropping the bombs by hand?

And just how do you say "cleared hot" in semaphore?

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Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
But does this say something about the numbers of available AC in our mil inventory?
I think it says more about the demand for JTACs, which has increased dramatically. They've also become stricter about requiring a certification to control air. The decreasing numbers of available aircraft and sorties available for training play a role too, I'm sure.

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Do they provide any sensor work, IE ROVER or pod talk-ons? I would think the aircraft dont have those capes but you never know.
I don't believe so. It's hard enough to get mil aircraft who can do that. There is talk of allowing them to drop inert ordnance (Mk76s, BDU45s), but right now I don't think they are carrying any ordnance or pods.
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Last edited by VMI_Marine; 27 March 2009 at 19:11.
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Old 27 March 2009, 20:02
Tenn-RGR Tenn-RGR is offline
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Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
I don't believe so. It's hard enough to get mil aircraft who can do that. There is talk of allowing them to drop inert ordnance (Mk76s, BDU45s), but right now I don't think they are carrying any ordnance or pods.
Did not know that. I thought they were already using inert. No ordnance, hmmm. Are they even showing up with guns? I mean something has to fall off of it to consider it a control, right?
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Old 28 March 2009, 07:25
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I've never worked with them, but it's a great idea and if I had the finances....would start a business plan.
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Old 28 March 2009, 11:26
VMI_Marine VMI_Marine is offline
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Did not know that. I thought they were already using inert. No ordnance, hmmm. Are they even showing up with guns? I mean something has to fall off of it to consider it a control, right?
Nope, ordnance drops aren't required to count a control. However, you are required (at least in the USMC) to have a certain number of ordnance drops to maintain currency. We played with contracted PC-9s in Germany that didn't carry ordnance. We would set up in a field overlooking a town and start running "attacks" on houses and vehicles in the area. I ran a couple of passes on a farmer plowing a field on his tractor.

The first picture is the PC-9s doing a flyover while we took a picture of our platoon with the German artillery battalion. The second picture is of some of our Marines with the German JTACs in a field overlooking a town.
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Old 28 March 2009, 15:29
Tenn-RGR Tenn-RGR is offline
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Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
Nope, ordnance drops aren't required to count a control.
You're right brother, I have no idea what I was thinking. I havent been on the mike in so long I forgot my "continue dry".
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Old 28 March 2009, 15:43
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Originally Posted by VMI_Marine
And just how do you say "cleared hot" in semaphore?
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA That hurt....
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Old 31 March 2009, 03:56
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They have A-4 and are looking for Pilot resume!

Thank you for posting this link!

Regards,
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Old 31 March 2009, 09:46
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Originally Posted by Forestboy View Post
More about why the Marines need an Attack a/c vice a Fighter a/c. If it has "F" in it's nomenclature the JFACC (Air Force) wants it for "F" roles and missions.

AV-8's don't get pulled for JFACC msn's. F-18's are always getting pulled. At least the AV-8's can drop JDAMS now.
What's a JFACC Mission?
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Old 31 March 2009, 19:04
VMI_Marine VMI_Marine is offline
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What's a JFACC Mission?
Tasked by the JFACC, instead of the Marine Expeditionary Force. In other words, tasked to work for non-USMC agencies outside of the MEF AO.
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Old 2 April 2009, 18:51
USMC_ANGLICO USMC_ANGLICO is offline
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Slab - weren't we talking about the rush to get more JTAC's in the system up at G-10 that day. I am all for the addition of JTAC's into the arsenal and creating more ground force JTAC's vs. FAC's. Primarily because there are more of us than them, but with anything, when you increase the numbers you risk the outcome of decreasing the capability. More JTAC's to get controls to punch their clocks, not as much range time, ord or a/c as before; not that there was much to begin with and now with Desert Talon going away and everyone trying to get to a Mojave Viper for training, it is going to get tight. Who gets priority? Who should stay more current than the others, ANGLICO, Recon, Infantry?? Not only that, but any Marine JTAC at least will tell you it is more than knowing the script, setting the basket and calling "cleared hot".

Are we expecting to keep all these JTAC's, especially the random Sgt/SSgt we send to the course for a deployment current and educated on combined fires integration, etc? I know in my position I am not only the Platoon Radio Chief, but also a de-facto FCT Chief/Leader and JTAC. My position is not unlike most I have come across where we are all wearing about a dozen hats and with having things that go boom come off the rails, there is no time to shake off the rust when it is needed.

You want to know the guy on the end of the hook knows what he is doing and is able to run with it. Just my 2cents.
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Old 3 April 2009, 19:22
VMI_Marine VMI_Marine is offline
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Dirty,
There is a plan to remedy the experience issue. I can send you what I've seen over NIPR on Monday. Frankly, it's something that MSgt P (2d's ops chief) said that the MC needed to do years ago.

What bothers me now is the JFO program. From what I've seen, units are sending key leaders (squad leaders, Plt Sgts and Cmdrs) to the program. I strongly disagree with that approach - those guys should be leading their maneuver elements, not worrying about talking a pilot on to the target.
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"This is how it is when the war machine rolls back and forth. You take your pleasure where you can and when you can, and let the circumstances be damned. For tomorrow you may be somewhere else." - Cass

"I understand all of the words you used, but I don't know what you just said." - Gen. Hagee speaking to the MEU S-3
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Old 1 October 2010, 16:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forestboy View Post
More about why the Marines need an Attack a/c vice a Fighter a/c. If it has "F" in it's nomenclature the JFACC (Air Force) wants it for "F" roles and missions.

AV-8's don't get pulled for JFACC msn's. F-18's are always getting pulled. At least the AV-8's can drop JDAMS now.
Old thread, but the contract CAS is getting looked at by more of the services as an answer the immediate need.

Forestboy, Please allow me to clear up what you said about the "F" vs "A" and the JFACC. Designations of fighter or attack aircraft has nothing to do with whether the JFACC will be able to task the aircraft. Without getting too deep in the doctrinal weeds...The Marines will develop their Direct Support Air Tasking Order (ATO) (which is, like it reads, the Marine aircraft flying in support of Marine objectives), and send that through the MARLO to be included in the AOR's single ATO. Any "excess" sorties will be made available to JFACC tasking in support of Joint Force Commander objectives (other component target nominations). To make sure the Air Component (not just the Air Force, but all air guys) is making the most efficient use of air assets, sometimes there is some horse trading involved.

As the Killbox Interdiction and Close Air Support (KI-CAS) Chief for the start of OEF and OIF, aircraft were tasked against targets essentially based on two criteria....1. Could they carry the right ordnance to meet the desired effect? 2. Did they have the legs to get the job done? (simple math of how much fuel would it take to get them to the target area, have some station time, and get back) Hornets have good legs, Harriers have bad legs. So, as lead horse trader, Harriers were left to conduct CAS for the Marines, and the Hornets were swapped on the ATO for A-10s/F-16s. The Hornets went deep to do Killbox Interdiction, (on both the V Corps and I MEF side of the fight), and the Hogs and Vipers filled in the CAS holes over the MEF. All of the horse trading was done with Marine concurrence, never the CFACC flexing his muscle to force the Marines to do something they did not argee with.
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Old 3 October 2010, 10:36
VMI_Marine VMI_Marine is offline
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Interesting perspective, Skidder, thanks for that. From what I've read, the CFACC went out of his way to assure I MEF that he would not try to take their air support away. I also read an interesting reference about "DASC Bingo" - AF pilots in V Corps battlespace would call bingo fuel early, check out with the ASOC and check in with the DASC in I MEF's battlespace due to more permissive FSCMs in I MEF's AO.
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"This is how it is when the war machine rolls back and forth. You take your pleasure where you can and when you can, and let the circumstances be damned. For tomorrow you may be somewhere else." - Cass

"I understand all of the words you used, but I don't know what you just said." - Gen. Hagee speaking to the MEU S-3
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Old 3 October 2010, 19:09
82Redleg 82Redleg is offline
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Originally Posted by VMI_Marine View Post
Dirty,
There is a plan to remedy the experience issue. I can send you what I've seen over NIPR on Monday. Frankly, it's something that MSgt P (2d's ops chief) said that the MC needed to do years ago.

What bothers me now is the JFO program. From what I've seen, units are sending key leaders (squad leaders, Plt Sgts and Cmdrs) to the program. I strongly disagree with that approach - those guys should be leading their maneuver elements, not worrying about talking a pilot on to the target.
I saw this in FA BNs re-roled to maneuver missions- since JFO pre-req is 13A (FA officer) or 13F (fire support specialist) (although this can be waived), they sent their platoon leaders. It worked just OK, mostly (I think) because we were doing a convoy escort mission, not a full up battle space owner.

I'm not clear on how the USMC works, don't you have almost enough forward observers for each platoon? I understand that, at least some of them, come from the weapons platoon mortar section and the weapons company mortar platoon, instead of all coming from the fire support team like in the army, but it seems to me that these would be the ideal JFOs.
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