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  #61  
Old 11 November 2018, 20:27
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1RiserSlip 1RiserSlip is offline
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This is a fucked up deal. Big fire, loss of life and property. Astronomical cost afterwords. God Bless the Firefighters that's some hard fucking work.

Talking about the Forest Management being shit there. I had some kind of Helmock Beetle that came from Japan. Thank you, assholes. Inspect your shit better.

They ate 2 perfectly healthy Colorado Blue Spruces that were 40 + ft tall in 16 months. Down to the last fucking needle then worked on the wood until it was rotten
Those large areas of damage from them need cut or controlled burned.

Another thing is how fucked up Logging companies leave an area. The easy money ones. That shit has to be cut and replanted a certain way. So, I agree with the POTUS. - If I give you money to manage your forest and you do it poorly...I'm not going to give any more fucking money unless you start unfucking it most rickety tick.
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  #62  
Old 11 November 2018, 21:57
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Mingo Kane Mingo Kane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1RiserSlip View Post
Another thing is how fucked up Logging companies leave an area. The easy money ones. That shit has to be cut and replanted a certain way. So, I agree with the POTUS. - If I give you money to manage your forest and you do it poorly...I'm not going to give any more fucking money unless you start unfucking it most rickety tick.
Yup...save all the trees you want, but they don't live forever. Controlled burns, combined with timely mature timber management and harvest...oh fuck it, I forgot it's California...it'll never happen unless they put some of 'those' sanctuary dwellers to work, but that would be cruel to subject them to such horrible labor unless it involves sheet rock, fruit picking or landscaping. Vote Feinstein and help California pass more laws to save their dead trees and brush!!
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  #63  
Old 11 November 2018, 22:19
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1RiserSlip 1RiserSlip is offline
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Down South they replant Pine in cut areas. Pines grow quickly. That attracts birds. Bird shit seeds. In 20-30 years the Oak and other hardwoods grow up through it.

The fly by night companies don't give a fuck. I'm not talking private land here.
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  #64  
Old 11 November 2018, 23:58
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Yeah Cali is fucked beyond all repair. Remember, this is the state that was in the midst of a biblical drought not too long ago. To the point that entire cities were in danger of not having enough drinkable water. And the fuckers wouldn't release water from their dams because of the fucking Delta Smelt --- a goddamn stupid minnow. And you think these clowns are going to allow controlled burns and fuel harvests? Yeah think again. The NGOs control that place. Sorry, but Cali is going to have to have a lot more of the state burn up, more fatalities, have people get sick of it (and I mean get FURIOUS), before you'll ever see anything resembling proper natural resource management/conservation come back to that state.

Cali is a lost cause.
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  #65  
Old 12 November 2018, 02:31
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wildman43 wildman43 is offline
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The smoke in Sacramento CA area yesterday it was 498 the max is 500 ,


You had to drive with you car lights on it was so bad.
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  #66  
Old 12 November 2018, 06:23
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Lord...God Bless the innocent lives lost and those affected.
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  #67  
Old 12 November 2018, 09:06
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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I'm looking at the news this AM and seeing that there is currently a fight to save Pepperdine University (in the Malibu area with the Woolsey fire). While the campus is closed, the students are currently sheltering in place in the campus buildings with the fire crews trying to keep the fire off of the campus.

Given how insistent everyone is about evacuating these things now, I hope they are successful in keeping it off of the campus. If they realize they can't pull it off, that's a helluva difficult task to evacuate all of those students on short notice with nowhere exactly to go.
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  #68  
Old 12 November 2018, 10:40
DiveBoss DiveBoss is offline
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I live just up the Feather River Canyon from Paradise. My buddy and I spent the first two days hauling horses out of the evac areas with our trucks and a couple of borrowed horse trailers. Ugly business.
The community of Paradise very unfortunately contributed to their own problem. The community "leaders" have over the years imposed very strict limits and bureaucratic hurdles on homeowners in regard trimming trees. You can't just cut off a limb or bring up a canopy without first getting a permit, any cut above a certain diameter needs a signoff by an approved arbor consultant, etc. In an area with very narrow roads, they want the visual appearance of lush vegetation in the neighborhoods.
Classic and tragic community mismanagement.
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  #69  
Old 12 November 2018, 22:08
smp52 smp52 is offline
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RIP to those who couldn't get away or fell fighting the flames.

IMO, it is incorrect to state the issue of these wildfires is only related to forest management on one end, or climate change on the other. California has a natural propensity to burn, but there are several overlapping factors that have a compounding effect making things worse.
  • Change in the nature of the fuel since the 1850s: In particular, grassland from the native perennials to annual grasses that came with ranching. The golden annual grasses that people associate with California is not native. In southern California, landscaping with Eucalyptus and some Pines not suited for the climate just amplifies the hazard. I had all of mine cut down and I personally re-landscaped with natives. https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/in...le/11664/10937
  • Reduction in cattle ranching/grazing: Animals need to eat through non-native fuel where possible on grasslands. Without ranching, the grasses are the worst kind of fuel and choke out native brush land that is adapted to fire, along with native species of animals.
  • More people next to high hazard areas that can be prone to fires: Primarily putting infrastructure such as electricity and homes in high risk places. SDG&E/PG&E electric lines in high winds (Santa Anas or similar) have gone down sparking fires in remote place. More campers in accidents, homeless, or criminal arsonists who, in the past, would have burned remote areas have the potential to do more damage.
  • Forest Management for areas with timber: There is a high degree of variability as I know they do controlled burns in places, but I think it isn't consistent and can be county/region specific(already discussed). Being passive about it isn't an option due to all the overlapping factors. Hell, call it a carbon retrograde program and throw dead trees down the plenty of old mine shafts in California.
  • Rain/Drought/Climate Pattern changes: After the 5 year drought we had, there are dead trees just sitting there as perfect fuel. They need to be culled. I have coworkers that grew up in rural northern California and still have family there. Many have never experienced successive triple digit dry spells like they did in their whole lives. So we're probably talking a good 50/70 years of memory, if not longer.
  • Disease/pests: Many trees have been wiped out by disease and in times of drought, they are even more weaker. Adds to the issue of fuel just sitting there.

Probably more stuff not addressed. But it isn't a single causal factor and there is no easy button.

YMMV
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  #70  
Old 12 November 2018, 22:26
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wildman43 wildman43 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smp52 View Post
RIP to those who couldn't get away or fell fighting the flames.

IMO, it is incorrect to state the issue of these wildfires is only related to forest management on one end, or climate change on the other. California has a natural propensity to burn, but there are several overlapping factors that have a compounding effect making things worse.
  • Change in the nature of the fuel since the 1850s: In particular, grassland from the native perennials to annual grasses that came with ranching. The golden annual grasses that people associate with California is not native. In southern California, landscaping with Eucalyptus and some Pines not suited for the climate just amplifies the hazard. I had all of mine cut down and I personally re-landscaped with natives. https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/in...le/11664/10937
  • Reduction in cattle ranching/grazing: Animals need to eat through non-native fuel where possible on grasslands. Without ranching, the grasses are the worst kind of fuel and choke out native brush land that is adapted to fire, along with native species of animals.
  • More people next to high hazard areas that can be prone to fires: Primarily putting infrastructure such as electricity and homes in high risk places. SDG&E/PG&E electric lines in high winds (Santa Anas or similar) have gone down sparking fires in remote place. More campers in accidents, homeless, or criminal arsonists who, in the past, would have burned remote areas have the potential to do more damage.
  • Forest Management for areas with timber: There is a high degree of variability as I know they do controlled burns in places, but I think it isn't consistent and can be county/region specific(already discussed). Being passive about it isn't an option due to all the overlapping factors. Hell, call it a carbon retrograde program and throw dead trees down the plenty of old mine shafts in California.
  • Rain/Drought/Climate Pattern changes: After the 5 year drought we had, there are dead trees just sitting there as perfect fuel. They need to be culled. I have coworkers that grew up in rural northern California and still have family there. Many have never experienced successive triple digit dry spells like they did in their whole lives. So we're probably talking a good 50/70 years of memory, if not longer.
  • Disease/pests: Many trees have been wiped out by disease and in times of drought, they are even more weaker. Adds to the issue of fuel just sitting there.

Probably more stuff not addressed. But it isn't a single causal factor and there is no easy button.

YMMV
Well stated an true, dam California LAWS you have to get a permit to cut trees down in a lot of areas even if it is on your own property.
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  #71  
Old 12 November 2018, 22:52
MacSwarthy MacSwarthy is offline
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I drove some supplies for the evacuees up to Chico over the weekend. The first place I stopped at, the Elks Lodge, actually turned me away because they didn't have enough people to sort all of the donated supplies. They had already filled 3 acres of land with 4 foot high piles of supplies. The second place I stopped, East Avenue Church, was also literally overflowing with donations, but the Red Cross was using them as a staging area and could handle the volume of supplies. Chico and the surrounding areas are some of the most beautiful in the country and the people are some of the best you could hope to meet. It's heart breaking that this kind of thing happens, but it's also inspiring to see a whole region pull together in mutual support like they have. I wish I could have stayed longer and done more.

If any of you are in the area, there's a closed FB group called Cowboy 911 that is being used by locals to coordinate relief/rescue/transport/storage for people's live stock and animals. I can probably get you an invite if you think you can contribute. Also, Anthony Watts, the (in)famous weather person and Chico native, has been providing constant status updates and weather forecasts for the areas affected through his FB page and has proved to be a valuable resource for many.

-MacS
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  #72  
Old 13 November 2018, 12:29
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Longrifle Longrifle is offline
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Fire is a naturally occurring process. With proper management, the application of fire is an inexpensive tool to manipulate vegetation and mitigate the risks associated with incompetence and negligence. California has yet to acknowledge this fact, and the consequence is lost human lives. Californians must demand change, or they will continue to die. It’s that simple.

Many of us remember the old slogan used by the US Forestry Service, “Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires.”. That slogan was the product of ignorance.

Today, their slogan is, “Only You Can Prevent Wildfires” because now the value of fire in nature is better understood.

I have a state license to conduct prescribed burns, and I burn my tree farm by management units on a regular and rotating basis. My trees thrive, and I fear neither arsonist nor accidental fire.

Fires in nature will happen. Paradise, California, did not have to happen.
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  #73  
Old 13 November 2018, 12:32
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Mingo Kane Mingo Kane is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longrifle View Post
Fire is a naturally occurring process. With proper management, the application of fire is an inexpensive tool to manipulate vegetation and mitigate the risks associated with incompetence and negligence. California has yet to acknowledge this fact, and the consequence is lost human lives. Californians must demand change, or they will continue to die. It’s that simple.

Many of us remember the old slogan used by the US Forestry Service, “Only You Can Prevent Forest Fires.”. That slogan was the product of ignorance.

Today, their slogan is, “Only You Can Prevent Wildfires” because now the value of fire in nature is better understood.

I have a state license to conduct prescribed burns, and I burn my tree farm by management units on a regular and rotating basis. My trees thrive, and I fear neither arsonist nor accidental fire.

Fires in nature will happen. Paradise, California, did not have to happen.
X100...
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  #74  
Old 13 November 2018, 12:36
Devildoc Devildoc is offline
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My wife's good friend and her family live in Paradise. She and her husband got a call a few days ago telling them to evacuate immediately; they spent 10 minutes grabbing everything they could and drove to Sacramento. Their home was destroyed.

Losing your home hits at a very personal level.
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  #75  
Old 13 November 2018, 13:19
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bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
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I don't want to talk out my fourth point of contact here, but wouldn't it help if homes were built of something other than stuff that burns? I've always thought that if I built my own home I'd go with one of the less basic "monolithic dome" designs. All concrete. I saw a pic of one of these in Florida after one of their regularly scheduled hurricanes, everything around it was match sticks, the dome home not a scratch. I don't think concrete or stone burns.....2x4's and sheet rock are possibly cheaper, I don't know, but it would seem like false economy at the moment....
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  #76  
Old 13 November 2018, 13:38
DiveBoss DiveBoss is offline
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Anectdotal to the house construction materials:
In talking to the firefighters on scene, they describe the typical sequence of ignition during these wind-driven fires as not as much starting on the exterior but far more as the hot gasses coming in through the vents under the eaves and it starting on combustible material inside the attic.
Those vents are there to help keep the house cooler and some circulation under the roof. When the fire is roaring and the wind is pushing it, they work in reverse. Your old stored tax returns, baby clothes and cobwebs then become the point of origin for the loss of your house.
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  #77  
Old 13 November 2018, 13:39
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Longrifle Longrifle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
I don't want to talk out my fourth point of contact here, but wouldn't it help if homes were built of something other than stuff that burns? I've always thought that if I built my own home I'd go with one of the less basic "monolithic dome" designs. All concrete....
Remember the one in Ojai, CA, last year? There’s a good reason why it survived. Remove just one of the three requirements of fire, and there is no fire.
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  #78  
Old 13 November 2018, 13:43
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wildman43 wildman43 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
I don't want to talk out my fourth point of contact here, but wouldn't it help if homes were built of something other than stuff that burns? I've always thought that if I built my own home I'd go with one of the less basic "monolithic dome" designs. All concrete. I saw a pic of one of these in Florida after one of their regularly scheduled hurricanes, everything around it was match sticks, the dome home not a scratch. I don't think concrete or stone burns.....2x4's and sheet rock are possibly cheaper, I don't know, but it would seem like false economy at the moment....
Did you see how that house was made. It was made of rebar all thru the house an each was attached to other rebar. it was made to stand winds up to 250 MPH or more.


Now days they have they call Blue wood as it is treated to with some that is fire proof, most of those homes were built years ago when they didn't have todays building code.
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  #79  
Old 13 November 2018, 22:39
Look. Don'tTouch. Look. Don'tTouch. is offline
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Originally Posted by DiveBoss View Post
In talking to the firefighters on scene, they describe the typical sequence of ignition during these wind-driven fires as not as much starting on the exterior but far more as the hot gasses coming in through the vents under the eaves and it starting on combustible material inside the attic.
Boarding up your attic vents is one of the steps to take prior to evacuation, if time provides of course.
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  #80  
Old 14 November 2018, 08:46
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KimberChick KimberChick is offline
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Watching David Muir a couple of nights ago he had a gentleman on that saved his house by using his pool and also he said he covered all the house vents to keep embers out. One guy went down to a greek area to escape the flames and said the heat was so intense he could feel it underwater. This type of fire has become so intense that the materials in the house would simply combust just because they are dry.
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