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Old 8 October 2015, 16:37
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
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Firearms Training And Practice

This came up over in The Lounge, but I wanted to bring it over here to hopefully get a good response.

The anti-gun people like to point to police officers as being the "Only Ones" highly trained enough to handle firearms, etc.

Events where cops have fired dozens or hundreds of round without hitting the people they were aiming at, or hitting bystanders, illustrate that cops have some of the same problems we civilians have.

So I've been curious about what the actual firearms standards are for police departments these days. In the early 90s at the small department I worked at, we qualified once a year, and there was no budget for training ammo. If we wanted to train, we bought our own ammo. (It was a small college department, and we didn't even carry our weapons. Long story).

But what are the requirements these days? Do many officers get to train? How often?

Would officers post their department firearms training and qual standards, especially if your department is doing more than the state requires or expects? I don't expect you to name your department, but it'd be nice if you could at least name your state.
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Old 8 October 2015, 20:25
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
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https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content...DTD110807.aspx

Mandatory - yearly. With both on and off duty weapon(s)/holster(s).
Generally shooting is incorporated into quarterly training, so the norm is 3 to 4 times a year.
Different squads shooting at different times makes for lots of additional opportunity to fire and there are always shooting positions available.
Additional Ammo and range time is available when desired.

Rifles require score of 90%.
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Old 9 October 2015, 09:41
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Mostly shitty, limited by budget and manpower needs.

In my department you qual twice a year and on those days you do some drills as well. It's okay, not great but not shitty either. Any competent shooter would do fine but it's not a complete joke. Some movement and use of cover.

I think the range guys and a lot of officers would like to shoot more and incorporate some more drills but it's not in the budget. We used to shoot quarterly, no more.
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Old 9 October 2015, 17:21
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My department quals every six months, one day qual and one "reduced lighting" qual in the evening. The range officers have some drills and incorporate flashlight/ gun light use. The department issues 100 rds per month for practice.

Last edited by GCPD167; 9 October 2015 at 17:22. Reason: Spelling
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Old 9 October 2015, 19:28
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Shoot once, maybe twice a year. Quals once a year. Day and night. Ammo is available, but has to be signed off on by firearms instructor.
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Old 9 October 2015, 19:35
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Agency and unit dependent. In my last agency when I was on a full time SWAT Team, we had a day on the square range, and a day in the shoot house (sometimes live fire, sometimes sims) each week. Of course operations and call-outs took precedent, and maybe 50% of the time cut into that.
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Old 12 October 2015, 13:22
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The FDLE standard posted by Fu King, shot annually. Additionally, an agency qual is shot with pistol and shotgun annually. The agency qual changes annually based on trends. This year it incorporates weak hand only, movement, failure drills, and non-standard responses. It also requires transitioning from shotgun. We also did fam fire with shotgun and pistol with gas masks this year.

Our in-service (DT, firearms, scenario-based) is two days, annually. SMG and rifle users qualify quarterly on those. Theoretically we can "open shoot" during business hours at the range, but it requires a lot of hoop-jumping. We have the nicest/largest facility in the region, so it's not uncommon to not be able to get range time because we are renting it to other agencies.

We give between 50-100 rounds of proficiency ammo for all duty and 1-2 off-duty guns on a monthly basis, on request.
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Old 12 October 2015, 20:52
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Charlotte shoots every 3 months. You can sign up for range days and shooting courses whenever they're offered. The time off to attend is on you.
Day training
Day Qual
Night training
Night Qual
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Old 31 October 2015, 20:42
sds06 sds06 is offline
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I've been embarrassed for years in regards to our department training. Once per year a 40 round qualification from 15 yards in. Lots of excuses as to why but it is pretty sad.
I spend at least one day per month on my own at the range at my own expense.
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Old 31 October 2015, 23:54
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Old agency: qual once a year or twice if deploying(only reaso. Was because the weapons changed for CONUS/OCONUS. Don't know why)
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Old 11 November 2015, 14:19
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My agency is one mandatory shoot a quarter for pistol. Rifle is once a year i believe. We are allotted 50 rounds of pistol ammo a month to use whenever you want to go to the range and shoot (they will give you more though.) I'm not sure how much rifle ammo they give per month. Our qual starts at 25 yards and works its way in.
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Old 11 November 2015, 14:33
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Good qual course....

http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html
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Old 11 November 2015, 17:14
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We're seeing improvements although it wasn't too bad to begin with. Introduction of shot timers, drills and mechanics more in line with the world at large, stuff like that. Still don't get to shoot enough but that's a budget issue. I'm pretty happy and I feel like things will continue to improve.
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

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Old 11 November 2015, 18:01
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My USSS friends quals every quarter- all kinds of FA.
Oh in January he can carry his Glock 33 off dity
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Old 13 November 2015, 13:06
HF0311 HF0311 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Good qual on times and drills, but no accuracy standard, its a lot better if you modify it and shoot on USPSA targets and only count A zone hits.....I know its not what the op is asking, but the CSAT standards to me, set the standard for quals, they cover all the realistic bases for using a pistol, its simple to run and unlike most quals when you fail to meet a standard you know what to actually practice. I am not LE, but I like to look up different quals and go shoot them, I find the 2 most common problems are 1. no accuracy standard and 2. most quals are typically the same 1 or 2 drills shot a multiple firing lines, like doing a failure drill at 12 yards then move to 10 do another failure drill, making the qual overly complicated to run and not giving you any real good feedback on your weaknesses and what you need to improve on.
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Old 13 November 2015, 13:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HF0311 View Post
Good qual on times and drills, but no accuracy standard, its a lot better if you modify it and shoot on USPSA targets and only count A zone hits.....



LOL......Tell you what.....go shoot it and pass inside those time standards then tell me there is no accuracy standard.

Saw quite a few former LEOs go home from ACY looking for a job because they could either shoot fast but not accurately or vice versa. The fact that you were shooting for your job also added a bit of stress. You get two chances then it's buh-bye get in the van.
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  #17  
Old 13 November 2015, 13:32
HF0311 HF0311 is offline
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This is me a year and a half and 60 pounds ago shooting it, granted no pressure of getting or losing a job over it, but the q target is way too big, especially for a qual done at 7 yards. Next time I go to the range i'll run it on uspsa's, I honestly don't know if I can clean it scoring just A zones.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzE6132GUc
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Old 14 November 2015, 16:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HF0311 View Post
This is me a year and a half and 60 pounds ago shooting it, granted no pressure of getting or losing a job over it, but the q target is way too big, especially for a qual done at 7 yards. Next time I go to the range i'll run it on uspsa's, I honestly don't know if I can clean it scoring just A zones.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOzE6132GUc
Try shooting that bitch after standing in the sun for eight (8) hours and it's your turn too pass...
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  #19  
Old 14 November 2015, 18:30
HF0311 HF0311 is offline
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Its a reasonably tough qual, and I know there are factors that make it even harder for the guys who shot it with a job on the line, I just think it would be a better qual if it was shot on a target that had a score-able standard of accuracy over a 23x30 inch antiquated target. Everything else about the qual is pretty good, its simple to run, the drills are relevant and realistic and the times when combined with a smaller target are tough but attainable..
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Old 25 December 2015, 10:27
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Looks like the LA Sherrif's Dept is having some issues with their new M&P's
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