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  #21  
Old 30 December 2017, 08:59
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SWCS does run a Weapons Course of two or three weeks for Conventional Units, I have no idea what the name of it is, or how it would appear on a 214, but it is an ATRRS Course. We (the 18A Committee) got kicked out of our digs (the old HALO, then 18F Committee bldg), downstairs, around back of Bank Hall to make room for it. It was designed to familiarize conventional units (before the SFABs) with the weapons they may see as they are getting ready to conduct FID/SA-type deployments. If you find yourself down there, there is now a mobile arms room firmly planted in the parking area down there. They tailor it, light, heavy, indirect, based on unit needs. Last time I was down at pubs, there was an SF guy running around, but most of the Cadre sport the maroon beret. His problem would be, the course started in the fall of 2015, which is when we got booted from our office.
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  #22  
Old 30 December 2017, 16:47
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That's the kind of thing I was referring to. And things like that sometimes get run ad hoc for periods that pre-date establishment of a "permanent" facility. Or they get run for a few years, then de-funded/cancelled... never to be heard about again. Especially during wartime.

----------------------

In 1980, the SFQC Weapons Course was one Class... with two Tracks. Light & Heavy.

They scientifically determined track assignment as follows (on Day One of the Weapons Course):

1. Seated entire class inside of white wooden building classroom next door to SWC Weapons Pool.
2. Called out the names of all who were prior conventional unit Anti-Armor, Armor, Air Defense Artillery, or Mortar MOSs and had us stand to one side of the room; we were automatically tracked for Heavy Weapons Sergeant.
3. Starting from the front of the room, counted back enough rows of remaining folks to meet their Heavy Weapons class quota; "You folks are now Heavy Weapons...". Just random pick based upon seating for those guys.
4. Everyone else became Light Weapons.
5. Each track mostly trained separately, but there was cross-over. The Light guys came over for a 2(3?) week block of non-testable Heavy training (to include crewing our live fire)... while the Heavy guys did the same for a shortened small arms familiarization track (including live fire). Heavy Weapons had to pass things like Mortar Gunner's Exam, Light did not. Light had to pass things like the Small Arms Pile Test... Heavy did not. But everyone got opportunity to practice both. Everyone shot all families of weapons... from pistols to PK machine guns to 90mm to RPGs to 4.2" mortars.

Administratively, we stood formations in two separate "platoons". And trained about 80% of the time as separate entities. But we were one class (with Student Class Leader & 1SG) and came together for combined effort at certain milestones of the course. Including ROBIN SAGE (Light & Heavy assigned to each ODA) & eventual graduation.

-------------------

Back to the topic at hand...

As fucked up as this job candidate's DD214 sounds... it doesn't have the usual over-achiever's embellishment. It doesn't reference made up secret squirrel stuff. Doesn't claim SMU stuff. The guy doesn't even have a Ranger Tab annotated. Posers love to add all that shit plus Audi Murphy level inflated valor awards.

His DD214 (at least what the OP posted) is mostly pretty vanilla as far as content. Plausible and appropriate for the rank, MOS, and time served.
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  #23  
Old 30 December 2017, 22:28
Joe30045 Joe30045 is offline
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Thanks for all of the input. Pics of the relevant parts of the 214. If I have inadvertently included any identifying information, please let me know and I will delete them ASAP. Is this worth pursuing a FOIA or should it make for an uncomfortable interview?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 214P2.jpg (17.4 KB, 312 views)
File Type: jpg 214P1a.jpg (23.6 KB, 314 views)
File Type: jpg 214P1b.jpg (42.6 KB, 313 views)
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  #24  
Old 30 December 2017, 23:12
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I suspect this guy had a break in service, going from AD to Reserve Component [probably IRR (Individual Ready Reserve)]... and then back to AD.

Meaning he has another DD214 from Active Duty. One issued after discharge from a prior 3-4 year enlistment...over 20 some years ago. One that reflects entry level schooling (Basic/AIT/Jump School) and things like the other two missing badge course dates. Likely went through Infantry OSUT, Airborne School, and first assignment with an Airborne Unit like the 82nd. Likely all reflected on that original DD214 from that first enlistment.

He probably held a 91 Series MOS job during that initial term of service... and acquired a secondary MOS. Or simply reclassified to such an MOS if it was in a shortage status back then. Which then became a secondary when he later re-enlisted for Active Duty as an 11 Series Infantry type. Which is why that annotated 91X4O appears as it does. The "4" reflects his carrying that Secondary MOS as an E7 and the "O" is a generic fifth character used by the Army for all MOS descriptions that have no associated SQIs or ASIs. Just like you'd have for a secondary MOS.

He got the 1993 EMT gig included on his retirement DD214 after realizing it wasn't on the first DD214. Because, as a young first-termer Joe, nobody told him it was creditable military education. Because older SFCs are smart about fixing those kinds of errors and getting their due retroactively.

Just ask him to confirm/explain the 91X Secondary, any prior service or break in service, and the general outline narrative of that 2-week SF trained weapons course.

My gut and experience says this one is good to go. Not a forgery. Not a poser. Not a blue-flamer career climber either. Just a well trained and broadly experienced Platoon Sergeant & Staff NCO who stayed the path until his 20 year mark. The man has a CIB. He also has an EIB. And a Pathfinder Badge. Those indicate "not-a-dud" in terms of general employment potential.
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Last edited by Astronomy; 30 December 2017 at 23:35.
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  #25  
Old 30 December 2017, 23:33
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"Sgt. Provo, you are a heavy weapons specialist?"
"Not if I can find a light one sir."
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  #26  
Old 30 December 2017, 23:46
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You funneee Petah-sahn...

LOL.
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  #27  
Old 31 December 2017, 00:19
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I don't know, Astronomy, something is bugging me about this one. Something else that just jumped out at me, PLDC was not called Warrior Leader Course until 2005, so he could not have attended WLC in 2000. Similar time frame for BNCOC to ALC. Of course this could be chalked up to the Admin type doing the data input using the terminology in effect at his retirement. I retired in 2013 and my 214 has the old terminology. That could go back to the quality of work done by the transition center.
Born 11/74
Total Prior Active Service - 6 Months 8 Days
Total Prior Inactive Service - 2 Years 1 Month 14 Days.

The resume lists a few additional courses that I would have thought would be on the 214; US Army Mountaineering Instructor, Arctic Survival and Mountaineering, and US Army Armorer to name a few.

I will reserve judgment until he has had a chance to explain the discrepancies.

Another thing this has caused me to do is re-look my own 214 and realize that I need to make some corrections as well.
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  #28  
Old 31 December 2017, 01:11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe30045 View Post
I don't know, Astronomy, something is bugging me about this one. Something else that just jumped out at me, PLDC was not called Warrior Leader Course until 2005, so he could not have attended WLC in 2000. Similar time frame for BNCOC to ALC. Of course this could be chalked up to the Admin type doing the data input using the terminology in effect at his retirement. I retired in 2013 and my 214 has the old terminology. That could go back to the quality of work done by the transition center.
Born 11/74
Total Prior Active Service - 6 Months 8 Days
Total Prior Inactive Service - 2 Years 1 Month 14 Days.

The resume lists a few additional courses that I would have thought would be on the 214; US Army Mountaineering Instructor, Arctic Survival and Mountaineering, and US Army Armorer to name a few.

I will reserve judgment until he has had a chance to explain the discrepancies.

Another thing this has caused me to do is re-look my own 214 and realize that I need to make some corrections as well.
I had the same reservations about the NCOES course names- I retired in 2007 and the clerk correctly listed my NCOES courses by the 'original' names including PNCOC. I went through the same Retirement Services office as this guy and they RARELY get things wrong there.

Never heard of a "Homeland Security Trainer' course in ATTRS, either. there are some things in there that make my 'spidey sense' quiver. 'Javelin Missile Trainers course'??? I know of a 'Javelin Missile Gunners Course' and the training device would be covered in it.

I dunno...
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  #29  
Old 31 December 2017, 01:17
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Keep in mind that his retirement DD214 reflects only military schooling completed during that 19 year, 10 month period. If he completed stuff on a prior enlistment (previous DD214 and first discharge) or during time in the IRR... those schools wouldn't show on that document.

Some IRR folks do the "Guard/Reserve Bum" thing and volunteer for short stints filling schools slots.

In the case of the cold wx/mountain stuff, he'd likely have gotten those at either Northern Warfare Training Center (NWTC) in Alaska or the Army Mountain Warfare School held at CEATS (Camp Ethan Allen Training Site), Vermont. Some of those courses are just a few weeks long.

I agree about the modern day clerk, personnel specialist, or GS Little Old Lady in Tennis Shoes possibly substituting modern course terminology when preparing DD214s. They like to err on the side of using current vernacular to vouch for a Service Member having completed things like requisite NCOES levels. Just in case there's ever a future dispute over records or the SM were to get called back to active service (even after retirement at 20).

Go with your gut. If you decide to interview the guy, ask him to alleviate your concerns. If he can't... cut him away.
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  #30  
Old 3 January 2018, 18:15
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I retired from Campbell in 2013, and my 214 has WLC, SLC, etc. on it. They used the current nomenclature for the courses even though that's not what they were called when I attended. I'm not sure if that's correct or not but that's what happened to me.

The two week heavy weapons course could have been one of the courses taught by the SOFSA or Crane folks. I think my diploma from the Navy Crane armorers course called it the SOF heavy weapons course. It was a 2-week course, not in ATTRS, but was on my ERB. I don't know if it's on my 214 but can dig my copy out of the safe to check if it's necessary. The ERB ladies were weird at Campbell. I had one that tried to reduce my deployed time and remove awards from the 214 that were documented on my ERB, and I had orders in hand for because she didn't think I could be in two theatres during the same month. Apparently, it's not possible to fly from Iraq to AFG in her world. I ended up not even documenting a significant portion of my deployed time because it was such a pain in the ass running between her and our S-1. The S-1 gave her all of the info, and she wouldn't accept the numerous short deployments, so I gave up. I'm pretty sure that the missing time isn't going to matter to anyone, so it's not worth fighting over.

He does have the unit armorers course listed on his 214 below the highlighted heavy weapons course. Not sure about the others but Astronomy's explanations make sense.
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  #31  
Old 4 January 2018, 14:52
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Negative, if it was the Crane, IN course (which is two weeks)itís the USSOCOM Armors Course.
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Last edited by Hot Mess; 4 January 2018 at 15:00.
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  #32  
Old 4 January 2018, 15:13
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"Survival service training USAF, 1 week" could be a few different things, but I've never seen any of them described that way.
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  #33  
Old 4 January 2018, 15:43
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I can see how the MOS thing got jacked up. I did a recruiting tour for three years for the NG and got a 79T MOS. When I retired, they took the date of award of that MOS circa 1997 and just ran it till I retired. So my MOS shows 11B 22 yr 5 mnths, then the 79T MOS for like 9yrs and change, even though I was only a recruiter for 3 years. Also, I was a NG Active guy, so my final DD214 was done out of Ft Lee. The poor chick down there had no friggin idea what half my schools were cause it wasn't shit she was used to dealing with. A lot of my schools were pre ATRRS and there was some inter-service stuff also. The first draft was an unreadable mess of acronyms and misrepresentations. She had correspondence courses listed as resident schools. Gave me a Ranger tab because my duty positon called for it. Just a comedy of errors.
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  #34  
Old 4 January 2018, 18:42
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Originally Posted by hawkdrver View Post
"Survival service training USAF, 1 week" could be a few different things, but I've never seen any of them described that way.
I have a couple of these on mine. The army has no idea how to code any of the other courses beyond SERE C. Heaven help you if you've been to more than one SERE level C course. The records people vapor lock on that.
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  #35  
Old 4 January 2018, 18:46
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I can see how the MOS thing got jacked up. I did a recruiting tour for three years for the NG and got a 79T MOS. When I retired, they took the date of award of that MOS circa 1997 and just ran it till I retired. So my MOS shows 11B 22 yr 5 mnths, then the 79T MOS for like 9yrs and change, even though I was only a recruiter for 3 years. Also, I was a NG Active guy, so my final DD214 was done out of Ft Lee. The poor chick down there had no friggin idea what half my schools were cause it wasn't shit she was used to dealing with. A lot of my schools were pre ATRRS and there was some inter-service stuff also. The first draft was an unreadable mess of acronyms and misrepresentations. She had correspondence courses listed as resident schools. Gave me a Ranger tab because my duty positon called for it. Just a comedy of errors.
All I got from that is youíre old as fuck
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  #36  
Old 4 January 2018, 19:01
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you’re old as fuck
No, it says that on my DD215
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  #37  
Old 4 January 2018, 22:22
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I have a couple of these on mine. The army has no idea how to code any of the other courses beyond SERE C. Heaven help you if you've been to more than one SERE level C course. The records people vapor lock on that.
Yep.

If I was a betting man I'd say it was the arctic survival school.

My gut says the guy is legit based on some of the other stuff on there and the way it's phrased. Should have mentioned that in my previous post.
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  #38  
Old 5 January 2018, 15:12
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Yea, looking at the 214 there is nothing that really jumps out at me as odd whatsoever.

As Hot Mess suggested, the Crane IN course was called USSOCOM armorers course. I can't find my certificate from the SOFSA course but they were the ones who fielded the Carl G to a bunch of units and that might have just been the liberal interpretation of the tennis shoe crowd at Campbell. I also got my regular unit armorers cert from a class taught by a contractor that worked at 5th Grp. I don't recall the specifics but he is the one who taught the armorers class we needed to get the normal arms room access. Nothing high speed at all but who knows if there was a local cert like that, which got transcribed to the army form for inclusion onto the ERB. Campbell was weird about that stuff and lots of us did it to get our local SOAR schools converted to be useful for promotion points (i.e. Regiment 1st responder to combat lifesaver, green platoon, etc.).
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