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Old 19 June 2015, 07:57
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Article on the new "Raiders"

http://news.yahoo.com/rangers-seals-...084554038.html

Interesting and pretty cool IMO to see the WWII lineage now being resurrected. Cheers.
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  #2  
Old 19 June 2015, 11:48
BigNickT BigNickT is offline
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I'm of two minds on this.

On the one hand I think it's cool to resurrect links to our past and the Raider lineage is certainly one to be proud of.

On the other hand………………

1. The Corps already (loosely) linked the MEUSOC Raid Companies to the Raider lineage. Frankly, I don't know if the Raid Companies even exist anymore, but the link remains.

2. MARSOC was derived from Force Recon. Det 1 was all Force Recon guys. The initial T/O for MARSOC, at least the trigger pullers, was drawn from Force Recon. Force Recon (and the Recon Battalions for that matter) trace their lineage back to the WW2 Amphib Recon Companies. Not the Raiders.

MARSOC seems to want to ignore the direct connection to Force Recon and the WW2 Amphib Recon in favor of a more vague and indirect connection to the Raiders. I'm not sure why that is.

The only legit reason I saw in the article is that it makes for better name recognition.

Tax out
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Old 19 June 2015, 16:09
RamblinWreck RamblinWreck is offline
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I'm of two minds on this.
FWIW, I was there for the ceremony and had an opportunity to talk to some of the trigger pullers beforehand. This has become an interesting example of unintended consequences.

The original intent was to have the name "Raider" apply to Marine Critical Skills Operators (CSOs) and their operational units. This was intended to reduce the confusion as to who MARSOC was and what they did. The desire was that "Raider" would refer to a Marine CSO, just as "Green Berets" refers to Army Special Forces and "SEALs" refers to Navy Special Operations. Instead, somebody has decided that "Raider" will refer to anyone assigned to MARSOC, and when they are no longer with MARSOC, they will no longer be called a "Raider".

So, the Marine CSOs are still looking for something that uniquely identifies them within the community and, in the future, numerous individuals will loudly proclaim they were "Marine Raiders" by virtue of the fact they may have once been assigned to MARSOC, regardless of their MOS.

I realize that all of the Armed Forces reflect aspects of our society, but this strikes me as being more of the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality.
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Old 19 June 2015, 20:11
WGH0922 WGH0922 is offline
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Meh, it's just a name, though I can understand the "everyone gets a trophy" thoughts by the CSO's. Someone says they're a 'Raider' just ask their MOS. If they answer anything other than 0372, then you know they were a support guy/gal assigned to MARSOC.
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Old 19 June 2015, 20:22
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So CSOs are conducting raids?

I was under the impression that they were doing a lot of mentoring/advising stuff.

Still on patrols, and etc -- but thought they were more like SF A-Teams, than Ranger companies....
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Old 19 June 2015, 22:45
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MarSoc gutted 2 Force Recon companies to stand up, yet acts like that isn't part of their linage.
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Old 20 June 2015, 08:37
82Redleg 82Redleg is offline
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Wouldn't be the first time that military lineage had little or nothing to do with the formation of the units. Look at the consolidations and "withdrawn"s in the 75th's history- the WW2 Ranger battalions were included in the SF history from 1960 - 1986, if I read it correctly. And nothing in the official lineage talks about the LRP/LRRP companies, even though they were letter companies of various regiments one day and letter companies of the 75th the next day. At least MARSOC "gutted" the Force Recon companies and stood up as something new- in Vietnam, we just changed the guidon one day.
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Old 20 June 2015, 11:14
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MarSoc gutted 2 Force Recon companies to stand up, yet acts like that isn't part of their linage.
Never understood why MARSOC appears to distance itself from FR. Would seem - from the outside looking in - that much of the people and skill sets are the same...
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Old 20 June 2015, 20:58
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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FR is the lineage of MARSOC.

I'm also perplexed why they/SOCOM/USMC seem so schizo about it.
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Old 20 June 2015, 21:05
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Lest we Forget

a dear USMC buddy of mine used to always cite Truman's words:

The President's reply, made public by Representative McDonough on September 1, 1950, and published in the Congressional Record (vol. 96, p. A6323), was the subject of considerable comment. The President's letter, dated August 29, follows:

"My dear Congressman McDonough:

"I read with a lot of interest your letter in regard to the Marine Corps. For your information the Marine Corps is the Navy's police force and as long as I am President that is what it will remain. They have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin's.
"Nobody desires to belittle the efforts of the Marine Corps but when the Marine Corps goes into the army it works with and for the army and that is the way it should be.

"I am more than happy to have your expression of interest in this naval military organization. The Chief of Naval Operations is the Chief of Staff of the Navy of which the Marines are a part.
"Sincerely yours,
HARRY S. TRUMAN"
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Old 20 June 2015, 22:51
WGH0922 WGH0922 is offline
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Originally Posted by Fu King Lawyer View Post
a dear USMC buddy of mine used to always cite Truman's words:

The President's reply, made public by Representative McDonough on September 1, 1950, and published in the Congressional Record (vol. 96, p. A6323), was the subject of considerable comment. The President's letter, dated August 29, follows:

"My dear Congressman McDonough:

"I read with a lot of interest your letter in regard to the Marine Corps. For your information the Marine Corps is the Navy's police force and as long as I am President that is what it will remain. They have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin's.
"Nobody desires to belittle the efforts of the Marine Corps but when the Marine Corps goes into the army it works with and for the army and that is the way it should be.

"I am more than happy to have your expression of interest in this naval military organization. The Chief of Naval Operations is the Chief of Staff of the Navy of which the Marines are a part.
"Sincerely yours,
HARRY S. TRUMAN"
Pretty telling that the letter was made public on 1 September 1950, exactly 2 weeks prior to the landing/assault at Inchon and 3 months prior to the break out at the Frozen Chosin. Now back on topic, yes as SB stated not only did we gut FR to form the 1st & 2nd MSOB's we raped their armory's, comm lockers etc.. as well. Personally, I know the Old School 0321's from 1st FR still maintain their identity/lineage/heritage and that it is the "new" CSO's that never had a Force Reconnaissance background who fail to identify with their lineage. Just my .02 Centavos.
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  #12  
Old 21 June 2015, 05:39
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Never understood why MARSOC appears to distance itself from FR. Would seem - from the outside looking in - that much of the people and skill sets are the same...
I'm going to take a stab and guess they want to ensure they stay far far away from HQMC pulling them back into the USMC "I hate life so everyone else must suffer too" routine. USMC will probably want them to do DI or recruiting duty or some shit

Also, the loss of all the FR guys has left a big hole in the USMC doctrinal intelligence collection picture. Collections and scouting have always been a weak issue IMO with the USMC. We have always taught the doctrine for collections: FR=MEF, Bn Recon=Div and Scout/Snipers=Bn WRT ISR collections but real life has always left everyone wanting for more and more people. S/F...Ken M
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Old 21 June 2015, 11:19
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Never understood why MARSOC appears to distance itself from FR. Would seem - from the outside looking in - that much of the people and skill sets are the same...
The people and the initial skill sets are much the same, but the additional skills that are added, and the very different mission, all contribute to this being a very different animal. There is a reason the CSOs now have their own MOS. Once a Marine qualifies as a CSO, they aren't going to be sent back to the fleet for "B" billets. It's not because they don't still consider themselves to be Marines, but is driven by the fact their numbers are limited, their invested costs of training is very high, and there are numerous "B" billets within MARSOC that must be filled by CSOs.

I'm not a Marine Corps historian, so I'm not going to parse words about lineage, nor am I going to try to explain why "Raider" should, or shouldn't be applied to Marine CSOs. Nevertheless, while the initial standup of MARSOC was done by FR Marines, the mission and needed skills have morphed radically in the last ten years. They have evolved from being a SOCOM version of FR, to something else. My impression is that their mission continues to evolve and that this is not the appropriate venue to discuss it.

Part of the reason for the name change was to be able to explain what MARSOC was, without having to resort to descriptions that related to the other service's special operations personnel. Things like "We're like an Army ODA" or "We're the Marine version of SEALs".
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Old 21 June 2015, 11:39
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Actually the missions aren't that radically different except around the FID/UW stuff. It's who they work for that makes the difference.

As to the cost, really? Do you have any idea of the cost of a FR Marine or a FR company?

I suspect the reason has more of its roots in ego than anything else.

It is what it is. I'm retired, but know what trails were blazed and continue to be blazed by the Recon community. MarSoc wouldn't exist if it wasn't for for the hard dudes who did things long before they were an idea. This same idea came from and was moved through to implementation by the FR community. Many good dudes had careers impacted due to the belief that the Corps could contribute in the joint arena yet didn't give up. They can try and bury that fact all they want. Won't change it though.
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Old 21 June 2015, 13:18
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As to the cost, really? Do you have any idea of the cost of a FR Marine or a FR company?
I suspect the cost to train a Marine CSO is at least twice that of a FR Marine. However, since I can't give you specific figures, I'd suggest you talk to some of your contacts in the MARSOC community. You might be surprised at what you find out.
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Old 21 June 2015, 14:36
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I suspect the cost to train a Marine CSO is at least twice that of a FR Marine. However, since I can't give you specific figures, I'd suggest you talk to some of your contacts in the MARSOC community. You might be surprised at what you find out.
LOL....
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Old 21 June 2015, 16:15
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I suspect the cost to train a Marine CSO is at least twice that of a FR Marine. However, since I can't give you specific figures, I'd suggest you talk to some of your contacts in the MARSOC community. You might be surprised at what you find out.
No I won't.
I suspect I have quite a bit more intimate knowledge of both units than you do.
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Old 21 June 2015, 16:24
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Originally Posted by Fu King Lawyer View Post
a dear USMC buddy of mine used to always cite Truman's words:

The President's reply, made public by Representative McDonough on September 1, 1950, and published in the Congressional Record (vol. 96, p. A6323), was the subject of considerable comment. The President's letter, dated August 29, follows:

"My dear Congressman McDonough:

"I read with a lot of interest your letter in regard to the Marine Corps. For your information the Marine Corps is the Navy's police force and as long as I am President that is what it will remain. They have a propaganda machine that is almost equal to Stalin's.
"Nobody desires to belittle the efforts of the Marine Corps but when the Marine Corps goes into the army it works with and for the army and that is the way it should be.

"I am more than happy to have your expression of interest in this naval military organization. The Chief of Naval Operations is the Chief of Staff of the Navy of which the Marines are a part.
"Sincerely yours,
HARRY S. TRUMAN"
I once upon a time sat twice monthly in a seat where Harry S. Truman once sat, as a member of a fraternity to which he belonged. It was ingrained upon me that this was important. This was also decades past where I attempted to become a Marine and failed.

That is my fault only.

One of the reasons, I believe, that Mr. Truman disavowed the Raiders was that BGen James Roosevelt II, USMC, FDR's son,was not only a former Raider, but was FDR's personal aide, an official secretary to the President, and actively worked against Truman in Congress after his father's death.

I'm just sayin'.

Back to my lane, which probably involves whitewashing rocks around the paved areas.

I'll be the fat pale guy wearing the Raider Project t-shirt.

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Last edited by kpel308; 21 June 2015 at 16:44.
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Old 21 June 2015, 16:28
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No I won't.
I suspect I have quite a bit more intimate knowledge of both units than you do.
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Old 21 June 2015, 17:00
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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I suspect the cost to train a Marine CSO is at least twice that of a FR Marine. However, since I can't give you specific figures, I'd suggest you talk to some of your contacts in the MARSOC community. You might be surprised at what you find out.
Please tell us the experience and data you have for your statement.

The units that I worked with didn't have any problems knowing who we were.

What are your experiences in the MARSOC or FR community?
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