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  #1  
Old 16 July 2006, 20:29
Darkrain Darkrain is offline
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Not a SEAL Check - it's about SF

This question is not about a phony SEAL it concerns a real big fish in a very small bowl.
Recently a local Vietnam vet and deputy sheriff (3 Bronze Stars & too many Purple Hearts) has been on the world famous gun instructor Ken Hackathorns trail. According to source both the deputy and Larry Bailey (Who needs no introduction) have asked for Hackathorn to either shit or get off the pot. Both have said that Ken has put out for years he was Special Forces in Nam. His DD-214 says he was in the National Guard in Ohio for 6 years, enlisted as an E1 left as and E2 and never left Ohio.
Ken has been searching for a legit answer as of last week and kept insisting he is-was Special Forces qualed, then it turned into "well I was attached to a Special Operation Group."
After they fried the worlds famous martial artist - phony veteran Dr. Maung Gyi who was also a local hero from down here in southern Ohio the sights are now being turned towards Hackathorn..
Anyone's comments would be appericated.

Darkrain

Admin edit on title and move due to subject matter. s/Frog
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  #2  
Old 17 July 2006, 07:07
KBAR-04 KBAR-04 is offline
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No surprise at all. He is skilled at what he does but I always thought he was a blowhard. One reason I dont read most of those gun rags, other than Small Arms Review. Usually the opposite is true of the real deals. I have a friend who is writer for a well known military magazine, specializing in firearms. He uses a pen name and doesnt brag on his military affiiliation but he is still an indiviidal reservist, SF qualified with combat time...
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  #3  
Old 17 July 2006, 09:01
sawbones sawbones is offline
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Met him a month ago at a combat-pistol match in Zanesville, Ohio. Seemed like a dick.
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  #4  
Old 17 July 2006, 13:20
Impavidus Impavidus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkrain
"well I was attached to a Special Operation Group."


Darkrain
Is he trying to say MACV-SOG?
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  #5  
Old 17 July 2006, 15:21
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Darkrain
I know nothing about Hackathorns. But if Larry Bailey is on his case Hackathorns had best leave town before sunset.
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  #6  
Old 17 July 2006, 21:38
Darkrain Darkrain is offline
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Hovy C275
I cant answer the question about the MACV-SOG, all I know as of today is he, Hackathorn told the deputy on the landline that, "well I wasnt actually SF qualified but I was attached to a Special Operation Group." When pressed about his DD214 says he never left Ohio then Hackathorn got a bit pissed and said "Why are you calling me up and asking these questions."
We like Larry Bailey down here in the hills of Southeastern Ohio as he help us fry Dr. Gyi.
Darkrain
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  #7  
Old 17 July 2006, 23:19
trailrunner78 trailrunner78 is offline
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Back in the days before Ronald Reagan was President, when you voluntarily enlisted you incurred a 6 year service obligation, however much of that was actually for active duty. Reagan later upped it to 8 years. I enlisted in '78, in
'84 I got one of those wall certificate's of honorable discharge in the mail. I eventually figured out what it applied to, ie. the 6 year obligation thing.

E-1 to E-2 in 6 years? The promo from E-1 to E-2 is automatic after 6 months, no? It almost sounds like he went to basic/ait, came back to the guard, dropped out before a year was up,(employment conflict/whatever) and then got paperwork in the mail when the 6 years was up......if Hackathorn is in his mid 50's, that would make it like '68-'69 or so when he joined, possibly he joined the Guard to AVOID being drafted and sent to Vietnam? Also, I was'nt aware that they issued DD214's for Guard/Reserve duty, they had another form for that by the 80's, but maybe they did 10-15 years earlier.....I'm curious as to his actual MOS though. Should be on his DD214, right?

I read this guy's articles for year's in Combat Handguns, etc. Kind of a suprise it's taken until now for someone to question him.....That SF thing was mentioned frequently.
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  #8  
Old 18 July 2006, 22:10
Darkrain Darkrain is offline
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What is the MOS

Trail Runner

I can have that DD 214 info in a day or so. I remember for sure that it isnt anything to do with combat relations.
Darkrain
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  #9  
Old 24 July 2006, 15:49
Sinister Dave Sinister Dave is offline
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If he was in the Guard look for his NGB Form 22. Freedom of Information Act query to the Ohio Adjutant General should get a copy.
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  #10  
Old 25 July 2006, 11:38
AJ Brown AJ Brown is offline
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Darkrain

Do you have that DD 214 yet?
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  #11  
Old 28 July 2006, 06:50
Darkrain Darkrain is offline
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Trippin

No on the DD,
I own a landscape business and we are busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest at the momemt. Working bout 80 hrs per week.

However I do have an update, the deputys cousin died last week and they just buried her. I have spoken to him briefly and he did confirm what was said that Hackathorn is as phony as Maung Gyi. Next week should produce the 214.
Darkrain
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  #12  
Old 30 July 2006, 04:44
Scouse Scouse is offline
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Well I have shot in matches with Ken Hackathorn, good shot.

Not sure why you would say you were something you were not, if he did.

A quick note on being not being who you claimed to be....

As a Bouncer at the Cavern Club in Liverpool UK 60 to 64, being involved in fights was a fairly common occurrence, the actual fighting was real good experience in teaching fighting with handguns, same adrenalin, and the instant reaction that is required in any violent confrontation.
Huge education in body language.

Starting a job on my first day, in my new country, Canada, I had to answer questions of other Brits, where are you from being one of them, on answering Liverpool one chap said "Hey come and meet this Guy from Liverpool, he used to be a Bouncer at the Cavern Club, where the Beatles played" he said Oh! thought I.

Huge surprise on this chaps face when he saw me..."Hi Mick, I told these guys I WENT TO THE CAVERN ALL THE TIME!! He said.
He did not work in my location so I did not find out how that played out, funny though.
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  #13  
Old 31 July 2006, 14:58
Veracity Veracity is offline
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Someone is pissing on your legs and calling it Darkrain

The internet is a fantastic tool for spreading information, but sadly it spreads disinformation just as quickly. A friend and relatively recent Hackathorn student forwarded me a link to this topic, asking me what I thought about it. Instead of answering him directly, I joined this group and now post the truth.

Ken Hackathorn is a fine gentlemen with a very impressive reputation as a firearms instructor. Hackathorn has saved many lives by advancing the art and spreading information rather than misinformation. He did not ask me to write this rebuttal, but I feel compelled to do so because I am in possession of the facts and will not stand by and watch a fine man be defamed.

I met Ken Hackathorn in 1979, the year after I took my E ticket at Gunsite under Jeff Cooper. Since meeting Hackathorn, I have taken eight classes with him and have shot many matches alongside him. We have broken bread many times including last week when my young son, who is active duty Army with a combat MOS, came home on final leave before deployment. Hack, as usual, took the time to sit down with a serviceman and answer questions and ask questions which made my young soldier feel important.

In all that time, I have never heard Ken Hackathorn claim that he is a Vietnam veteran or make any other false claims. In fact, I can recall several occasions when Ken made it clear that he was NOT a Vietnam vet. Ken spent six years in the 19th Special Forces Group in the WV (not Ohio) NG, leaving as a Staff Sergeant Weapons Specialist, (not an E2 mortarman). Like all other SF weapons specialists of the time, Hack was certified on light and heavy weapons. He is well respected by those who matter.

Unfortunately, there is an article in the current issue of "Combat Tactics" magazine by Cameron Hopkins about a Hackathorn training class. The article contains many factual errors. This article is the apparent source of misinformation for "Darkrain" and a deputy sheriff in Ohio. The Sheriff apparently obtained an early DD214 and/or didn't know how to read it - not knowing that an MOS number that ends in "S" means Special Forces. Captain Bailey contacted Hackathorn who clarified that the autor of the article, Cameron Hopkins had assumed that Ken Hackathorn was a Vietnam vet and that Hackathorn was upset with that misstatement and several other unfortunate factual errors in the article. At Hackathorn's request, Combat tactics will print a retraction in the next issue. Hackathorn is not a phony.

Hackathorn is human and being human he is not perfect. The only perfect human was defamed and killed about 1974 years ago. Hack does swear too much and so do I. We are both working on it.

Veracity
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  #14  
Old 31 July 2006, 15:07
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So are you saying he went through the Q course and was awarded an 18 series MOS?
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  #15  
Old 31 July 2006, 18:51
Veracity Veracity is offline
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Veracity

I am absolutely NOT saying that Hack attended the Q course or got an 18 MOS during his term of service.

His term of service was from 1966-1971 and both the Q course and the 18 MOS did not exist until the 1980's.
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  #16  
Old 31 July 2006, 19:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veracity
I am absolutely NOT saying that Hack attended the Q course or got an 18 MOS during his term of service.

His term of service was from 1966-1971 and both the Q course and the 18 MOS did not exist until the 1980's.
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  #17  
Old 31 July 2006, 20:34
Greenhat
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Veracity,

If you don't mind...

Is Hack's flash a paper flash?

What ODAs did he serve on?

Is Hack an SFA member? What is his membership number?
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  #18  
Old 31 July 2006, 20:54
Richman Richman is offline
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Veracity - You mentioned that he had an S indentifier. This does not make him a SF guy but a SF support guy like myself. Unless rules were different back then.

The "S" indentifier as it is today.......

***************

United States Army Special Qualifications Identifier (SQI)

"S" - Special Operations Support Personnel


a. Description of positions. Identifies selected positions for Special Operations support personnel.


b. Qualifications.

(1) Must be Airborne qualified (except for GMF 67 and MOS 93P).


(2) Successfully complete OJT/OJE and serve 24 months in their primary MOS with a SOF unit (may be waived up to 12 months) or, successfully participate in at least 2 unit exercises (these exercises may be a result of unit training or actual mission requirements).


(3) Or, successfully complete Special Forces Assessment and Selection (SFAS) and the Special Forces Qualification Course (SFQC). Soldiers completing both SFAS and SFQC will be awarded the SQl and the Special Forces Tab.(Note: These courses are closed to female soldiers).

(4) Award of SQl will be accomplished in accordance with AR 600- 200, paragraph 2-33a(1).


c. Restrictions. Positions identified by SQl 'S' are used only with support MOS 25M, 25R, 25V, 31C, 31F, 31L, 31P, 31R, 31S, 31U, 31W, 31Z, 33T, 35E, 35J, 35L, 35N, 350, 35R, 35W, 44E, 45B, 46R, 51Z, 52D, 54B, 55B, 55D, 62B, 63B, 63H, 63J, 63S, 63W, 63Z, 67T, 67U, 67V, 67Y, 67Z, 68B, 68D, 68F, 68G. 68H, 68J, 68K, 68L, 68N, 68X, 71G. 71D, 71L, 71M, 73C, 73D, 73Z, 74B, 74C, 75B, 75H, 76J, 77F, 81Z, 83E, 83F, 88M, 88N, 88Z, 91B, 91E, 91S, 92A, 92G. 92R, 92Y, 92Z. 93P, 95B, 96B, 96D, 96H, 96Z, 978, 97E, 970, 98C, 98G, 98H, 98J, 98Z in SOF organizations.

Withdrawal of the SQl may occur when the local SOF commander determines the individual to be un-qualified or at the request of the individual.

Information derived from Army Pamplet 611-21, 11/2000

********

Things may have been different back in the day.... I am unqualified to speak to that.
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Last edited by Richman; 31 July 2006 at 21:00.
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  #19  
Old 31 July 2006, 22:57
Trip_Wire Trip_Wire is offline
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Veracity:

Back in the day an "S" would have meant he was SF qualified and awarded a Flash, whick back in the day, was the same as the tab now. I had to apply for my tab (Which was awarded.) using my copy of the order authorizing the "S" designator in my MOS.

BTW: I'm a Life member of the SFA at Chapter XVI (16). I have been a President, Vice President, Secretary and Newsletter editor of that Chapter over the years.
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  #20  
Old 31 July 2006, 23:58
Greenhat
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Ben,

Rules back then were different.
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